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  1. #1
    Fish Food
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    Default A/K with mid kicker

    Since this is my first post, I'll use a few words to introduce myself. I have been playing poker now for over two years, but only at very low levels ($0.01/$0.02, NL, Hold 'em, 8-10 players). I have played just under 20,000 hands and turn a small but steady profit. I am mathematically very capable and have a logical mindset. I believe my poker play to be disciplined, tight and aggressive (The discipline took a while!) The rooms I usually play in tend to have players who will see the flop when dealt any ace or king, medium-high pairs and medium-high suited connectors.

    I have prepared a database of hands that I win and lose with, to see areas of weakness in my play and to try and come up with ways of improving. Now that I have played a substantial number of hands I have concluded that I am struggling to turn a profit when dealt a middle card (10/J/Q) with a high kicker (A/K), especially in middle position. Below is my current "default" strategy for a table matching the description above, I would greatly appreciate any comments or advice, even for the positions where I am currently profitable.

    Early position
    In early position I tend to raise (2-4x), which usually causes most people to fold, occasionally with one player remaining. I typically come out betting if I've received a flat call to my raise for two reasons: 1) To see how strong my opponent's hand is; and 2) To prevent giving a free card which may weaken my hand on the turn. I'll then fold to a raise and give my cards up on the turn if I am called. My strategy is profitable in this position, folding to any pre-flop re-raises.

    Mid position
    Generally, if I have a "middle hand" in "middle position" then I'll fold. I frequently find these hands to be a recipe for disaster. Any bets ahead of me show too much strength and the risk of raises behind me usually require a fold. I have remained consistently unprofitable with this class of hands. I now throw them away before the flop because I am unsure what else to do with them.

    Late position
    In late position I raise (2-4x) as I want to win the hand before the flop, to prevent my hand being weaken on the turn. If I get re-raised I usually fold, fearing over pairs, but occasionally call to keep the strength of my raise intact. I know this call is not mathematically correct, but it keeps me at the table with an air of strength. I'll give up my hands quickly on the flop when facing a bet, unless I am given the correct pot odds for a draw. In late position I also remain profitable with these hands.

    Let me know what you think!

  2. #2
    Semi-Pro Moderator KnightofNarg's Avatar
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    Default

    Welcome! Please don't take offense by the things I might say to follow. I'm just trying to feel you out and what you know, making suggestions where I see fit.

    1)Are we talking about AQ-AT and KT-KQ? Why do you vary your raise size? And why does it sound like you're more willing to bet early/late position, but tighter middle position?

    2)At your comment about raising for 2 reasons, I disagree...The two reasons we should be is because we want lesser hands to call, or better hands to fold; Valuebet or Bluff (sometimes semi-bluff).
    Preventing a free card is a part of valuebetting, so I hope you mean when you have a hand and you expect them to be drawing.
    Gaining information is just a side effect of our actions, and shouldn't be the primary reason for any action.
    Though generally it is okay when you raise preflop, that you fire a cbet on the flop. But when you do this is should think about what range you opponent has, the board texture, and the playstyle of your opponent.

    3)Late Position - With stronger hands we raise because we want to start getting value preflop. If they fold that's fine, but the majority of our profits come from postflop play.
    I wouldn't worry too much about people raising your late position raises to exploit you, balance really isn't important at the low stages. More than enough of your profit will come from solid value betting. If you want to call a 3bet, do it because you have position, your opponent is 3betting wide, and your hand has much postflop potential.
    Last edited by KnightofNarg; 04-02-2011 at 12:31 PM.

  3. #3
    Check Raiser Aces-o-8s's Avatar
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    Default

    Hmmmmmmm - this being the General Poker Strategy section, I'm going to assume your playing cash games and not tournamants.

    Default poker strategy should only be a starting point in starting hand selection and betting. In the beginning or while learning and gaining experieance you want to avoid problem hands that can get you into trouble and broadway cards are the most troublesome since everyone like to play them and any broadway flop (2 or 3) can mean str8s, 2 Google Page Ranking, set and complicated with flush cards. As you gain experieance many of the starting hands you avoided b4 will gradually become playable depending on how the table as a whole is playing or if your targeting a specific player in the blinds or an aggressive player in position whose been too active for too long and its time to play back with a wider range.

    Betting and raising early on should be pretty ABC but as you get to know the table dynamics better, you will want to mix up your openers with limps, limp-calls and limp-raises if 1st in along with occational 3 bets instead of always flat calling with AJs or KQs vs an earlier pf raiser if you know that player to raise light.

    Your defaults show a lot of caution and lack of confidence IMO. A pfr from MP if 1st in w/KJ is a perfectly reasonable play especially if it buys the button and gets you HU vs one of the blinds. Just don't overvalue a single pair if your opps calls your C-bet. Books - lots and lots of them - are better suited to address your question(s) comprehensively but for here I would suggest giving a few hand histories which can be analysied by a few different forum members. There are usually a varity of opinions with gems of wisedom from most.
    Last edited by Aces-o-8s; 04-02-2011 at 12:51 PM.

  4. #4
    Fish Food
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    @KnightofNarg

    1)Are we talking about AQ-AT and KT-KQ? Why do you vary your raise size? And why does it sound like you're more willing to bet early/late position, but tighter middle position?

    We are talking about AJ, AT, A9, and KJ. My raise size depends on the players at the table and what the standard pre-flop raise is. Sometimes raising 2x results in a call from everyone and a larger raise is required to be effective at getting the majority of people to fold.

    I am willing to bet more readily in early position because it allows for a semi-bluff. I may win the pot immediately, certainly cut down my opposition and gain information about the strength of those who are left in the pot. I also have a clear strategy for the flop here, if I raise and get called pre-flop, even if I miss the board I bet in order to learn how strong my opponent's hand is. Checking would immediately reveal my hand. Long term, I have found this to be a profitable play.

    In late position, I have a chance to see what other players have done and I'll raise to push out limpers who are hoping to hit draws or find a set. I am also last to act on the flop, allowing an easy fold if there is too much action before me. Again, on the flop, I have a clear strategy: if no one bets, and the board isn't dangerous, I bet to prevent giving a free card to anyone on a draw. If there is too much action before me and I've missed the board, I give up my cards. This play is also profitable for me.

    In middle position I don't feel comfortable betting with these hands as, on the flop, I'll likely be one of the first to act, and if I miss the board I am not in a position to come out betting. I also don't like a simple flat call, unless my pot odds warrant it, which is rarely the case. This is where I most need advice.

    2. Good point. While I agree with the premise we want better hands to fold and lesser hands to call (As Sklanksky also mentions in A Theory of Poker), I have found it worthwhile with these specific hands (AJ, AT, KJ, KT) to bet if in early position, following a pre-flop raise, especially when the flop yields potential draws. By limiting the pot odds of my opponents by betting, any call from a drawing hand is a mistake and I make a gain in the long term (even if I happen to lose that particular hand; also Sklanksky)

    3. Again another excellent point. One thing I have read, however, is that the strongest hands (AA, KK, QQ) fare much better against fewer people. Raising with these hands cuts down the field, increasing the expected value of the hands by reducing the risk of running in to trips etc. What do you think?

    Thank you for taking the time to write that passage. It's much appreciated!

  5. #5
    Fish Food
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    @Aces-o-8s

    You are correct, cash games only so far. Thanks for your advice too. I understand that as I improve I'll be able to mix up my play a bit more. I notice you say I sound like I show a lot of caution and a lack of confidence. I think you are correct, to a point, I don't like to find myself going in to a betting round not really knowing where I am and my natural instinct is usually to fold and get away from the pot! I am cautious with my betting, but when I have a hand I think is the best I try to make the most out of those guys who keep calling no matter what and bet more aggressively into draws.

    One thing I don't do enough, I believe, is flat call. If I'm in a pot I like to be in control as far as possible, i.e. leading the betting in early position or raising in late position. If I call it's because I have a very strong hand or the nuts, because I'm trying to extract as much money as possible from my opponents. I currently get involved in 18% of pots and, usually, enter these pots with a raise or a check (from BB). Occasionally, I'll call a moderate hand (low pair, high connectors) pre-flop if lots of players are already in the pot, as I'm likely to be getting favourable implied odds.

  6. #6
    Semi-Pro Moderator KnightofNarg's Avatar
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    Sounds like standard cookie cutter strategy, which is winning game at 2nl/5nl. Have you done much studying into Ranges and Exploitation yet?

    I'm be more worried about your overall win rate than your indivdual hand winrate. Big hands like JJ+/AQs,AK we're going to want to be winners. More of our medium strength hands are fine if we don't make much, or anything.

    43k hand Sample - AJs $18.45, AJo $0.41, ATs $1.69, ATo $-12.54, A9s $-2.71, A9o $-4.50, KQs $3.76, KQo $4.80, KJs $6.61, KJo $2.50
    You can see I don't make a killer profit with a lot of them, AJs is a big winner, ATo quite the opposite. I have a winrate of 18bb/100 at 2nl, which is good. That's being a timid and passive player as well, and not knowing very much.

    I do want to say I don't see enough people treating suited cards differently than offsuit. There is a huge difference between the playability.

  7. #7
    Fish Food
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    I haven't done much exploration in to ranges and exploitation, can you suggest any resources which may be useful?

    Your results certainly seem to encourage playing with suited connectors. I'm surprised by the large differences in your profitability with AJ and AT suited and offsuit. Presumably you run into a lot of K/Q high flushes with the nuts? I'll have to loosen up in this area from now on.

    I used to watch a program in the UK which was on each night for two years called Poker Night Live. It was a television show where you saw real cash games being played on line with expert commentary and the odd WSOP guest offering their wisdom. It really was an invaluable resource and a great shame it's no longer on air. They often speculated whether or not playing a pair of cards just because they were suited was really profitable. They never reached a final conclusion, but usually their advice was that if you were going to use a flush draw as a potential out, you better be damn sure your flush is the best one out there! I guess this explains your success with AXs over AXo.

  8. #8
    Semi-Pro Moderator KnightofNarg's Avatar
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    I came from Flopturnriver so I'm going to link to since of their threads, since I can't really find much how-to stuff on pokerforums.org. These are mostly going to be about hand combinations and ranges. Exploitative play just means using people's tendencies to your advantage.

    Super Duper Basic Game Theory Concepts - Poker Forums

    How-To: Calculating Hand Combinations, About Blockers, etc. - Poker Forums

    Put Your Opponent On A Goddamn Range - Poker Forums

    What´s a range, Dad? - Poker Forums

    Let's Talk Balance - Poker Forums

    Here's a link to their Beginners Digest, which should have at least a few useful reads.

    Beginners Digest: LEARNING STARTS HERE - Poker Forums

  9. #9
    Semi-Pro Moderator KnightofNarg's Avatar
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    Simply put, suited cards give you another way to win, they play better in multiway pots, and increase the options you will have postflop. AJs and other suited broadways and connectors can flop combo draws and pair+draws. Which are exceptionally strong hands that, even when behind, are never drawing dead.

    With nut flushes, sets and 2Pairs also will call to hit fullhouses, and may call river bets depending. It just depends on your opponents tendencies and their perceptions, which at 2nl are often time horribly bad.

    One piece of advice. Always be careful when following people's suggestions or new concepts. I've seen plenty of people try something new out without the proper understanding and skill to implement it, and lose quite a bit. Whenever you get advice, ask questions and do research.

    At 2nl it's okay to keep it simple. Focus on valuebetting and forming ranges, these are the most basic skills that will allow you to progress quickly as a poker player.

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