Why Raising Is Better Than Limping

Brokerstar · #1 (**permalink**) 06-23-2009

Hey guys

After spending the last couple of days reading through some of the posts on here I decided to just give a quick overview on a pretty big leak that most microstakes and beginner players have.

It's the idea of limping in to see lots of cheap flops. It's for the most part a flawed logic and ironically doesn't make for cheap flops in the long run.

It's not as detailed as it could be but it is meant as a quick primer to get these guys thinking on the right track.

So here you go...

Why Raising is better Than limping

I often find players who are beginners, like to limp into a lot of pots in order to see a 'cheap flop'. The irony to this situation is that you are in fact (in the long run) making the flops you see more expensive and lets look at the reasons why.

Firstly when you raise pre flop with all the hands that you want to play (and are first to enter the pot) you give yourself a lot more ways to win the pot. If you're limping in then you are normally going to see multi way pots and have to make a hand in order to take the pot down. If you raise though, you can win the hand pre flop or on the flop with a continuation bet, not to mention that you will be letting less people see the flop for free (the blinds) and thus when you do have some sort of hand, you will win more often as you are facing less opponents.

Let us look at a few other good reasons to raise pre flop with your entire range of hands rather than limping in. Well for a start it makes you much harder to read. if you're raising AA, KK, 22, 89s, JQs etc then your opponents have no idea what your playing. If you limp small pairs for example in order to hit a set but raise big pre flop with AA, then you become very transparent to play against and easy to read.

Another downfall of players that limp in with their non premium hands is that they will often find themselves limp/ calling a raise with hands like KJs only to find themselves playing out of position with a dominated hands. This is a situation that carries what's known as reverse implied odds.

Reverse implied oods will mean that you make say a top pair hand and either win a small pot because your opponent gives up or doesn't build a big pot with a worse hand or you lose a big pot because he has you crushed. you're allowing them to play perfectly against you while you are in the dark and very often out of position.

You'll find it much easier to fold a hand like KJs, KQ, AT etc to a 3bet (re raise) than a limp call which means you'll find yourself in less trouble spots and poker will become more fun.

Lastly your image at the table. If you are constantly raising with every hand that you decide to open first with then you'll start to get less respect from the other players which means they are more likely to start playing back at you. They have no idea when we are strong or weak as our bets are consistent so it's for this reason that they are a lot more likely to make a mistake in a hand against us than we are against them.

In short we'll keep our opponents guessing and off guard, we'll win more pots pre flop, more post flop and showdown winning hands more often because there are less people in the hand with us on the whole.

Remember this the next time you're sat at the tables.

Broker

azeldin · #2 (**permalink**) 06-23-2009

Loving the advice you're doling out on this site for us noobies

KRE8R · #3 (**permalink**) 06-23-2009

I believe that there is a time and place to be limping into pots at the micro stakes. For instance if the table is full of passive stations there is no reason to be raising hands like 45 sooted OTB if you know you will be getting many calls from loose passives. Just overlimp (even at 6max) and wait for the big hands. I currently use this strategy at 6max NL4 on the Cake network where there are frequently tables full of players that just love to limp into every flop and will call bets with as little as bottom pair. I see no reason whatsoever to be raising, even IP, with speculative hands if you know that you are likely to get many callers pre and postflop. I have had quite a bit of success with this strategy over a lot of hands.

However as you said Brokerstars, you need to be selective with your hands. If you are going to be limping in with others you need to make sure that your limp range at a loose passive table is up to par. There is no reason to overlimp with a hand like KJ sooted. This is a hand that should be raised preflop since you will often get calls from players with top pair weak kicker type hands. Speculative hands like sooted connectors and sooted one and two gap connectors are the best hands to limp with.

I do however recommend raising all pocket pairs from any position, even at a table full of loose passive calling stations since the times when you hit sets or have an overpair you will typically get paid off.

These are only suggestions for micro stakes players. Above all be aware of the table standards for your site and level. You must be able to adequately acclimate to the table conditions at all times.

Brokerstar · #4 (**permalink**) 06-23-2009

I was just talking about when you are the first to act. Over limping is a whole other subject that I could pretty much write a book on.

There is no point iso raising stations with hands that play well in multiway pots as you have good implied oods and position. There is a whole range of hands that do play better in raised, heads up pots than in multiway pots. Again it's a different subject that I will tackle at some point.

But if you are the FIRST player to enter the pot, I assure you that there is no need to limp in, if you have super loose station sat directly on your left then I'd suggest changing tables or really tightening your opening range.

Broker

Brokerstar · #5 (**permalink**) 06-24-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRE8R

I believe that there is a time and place to be limping into pots at the micro stakes. For instance if the table is full of passive stations there is no reason to be raising hands like 45 sooted OTB if you know you will be getting many calls from loose passives. Just overlimp (even at 6max) and wait for the big hands.

So I guess by saying 'over limp' you mean there are already limpers in the pot? In that case I agree with you.

If it's folded round to you on the other hand, I'd raise. What if the blinds have 72 and J3? do you think they'll call a raise? you'll probably win the blinds uncontested. Secondaly you can assume that you play better post flop and having position in the hand will be in your favor should you hit and want to build a pot post flop.

Quote:

I currently use this strategy at 6max NL4 on the Cake network where there are frequently tables full of players that just love to limp into every flop and will call bets with as little as bottom pair. I see no reason whatsoever to be raising, even IP, with speculative hands if you know that you are likely to get many callers pre and postflop. I have had quite a bit of success with this strategy over a lot of hands.

Again I don't disagree with what you're saying, I was in my post simply covering how to play in 6 max when you're first to act.

Quote:

However as you said Brokerstars, you need to be selective with your hands. If you are going to be limping in with others you need to make sure that your limp range at a loose passive table is up to par.

I just think that hands in this situation simply need to be easy to play post flop and carry good implied odds. For example pocket pairs from 22-88, a whole range of suited connectors, suited one gappers and if you're on the button or maybe the cut off, then pepper in some suited aces.

Quote:

There is no reason to overlimp with a hand like KJ sooted. This is a hand that should be raised preflop since you will often get calls from players with top pair weak kicker type hands.

Hands like KJs just play better in a heads up pot than they do multiway so yes you want to isolate with them, if you choose to play it but again it's situation dependant, you can fold the hand too.

Quote:

I do however recommend raising all pocket pairs from any position, even at a table full of loose passive calling stations since the times when you hit sets or have an overpair you will typically get paid off.

Are you talking about an unraised pot now? If it's been raised already then I'll normally call for set value depending on how many players are in the hand and my position in relation to them.

If someone limps and I have 22-66 and I think by over limping that I'll get more loose/passives to call behind me then I'll not raise and the hand is easy to play post flop and with more fish in the hand I'm moree likely for someone else to hit something when I flop a set.

If they have a premium over pair then they are likely not limping in and there is no need to re-raise someone who is repping a big hand pre flop (nit raising under the gun for example).

If I'm first to act then yes I'll raise, but then again I never open limp any hand if I'm first to enter the pot.

I'll fold pairs from 22-66 in a situation, if say it's a player who's raised on the button (who opens a wide range) and I'm in the blinds as you can not call for set value here and will often have to play a raised pot, out of position , facing over cards and have to check fold often. Then when you do hit a set, your opponent will often not have a hand strong enough to pay you off making this a losing play for most.

Natin · #6 (**permalink**) 06-24-2009

it depends on the table, why would you raise in first position with 9-10 suited you get 4-5 callers then completly miss the flop, try your shitty continuaton bet and som1 comes way over the top, your going to call? now you'v blown a decent amount of chips compared to if you just limped on the button and missed the flop...

Brokerstar · #7 (**permalink**) 06-24-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natin

it depends on the table, why would you raise in first position with 9-10 suited you get 4-5 callers then completly miss the flop, try your shitty continuaton bet and som1 comes way over the top, your going to call?

I'm not really sure what you're talking about???

If you think a C-bet is a 'shitty play' then please come and play at my table.. lol

Secondaly you asked am I going to call if someone comes over the top? Over the top of what? you gave no example of a flop? If the flop is A99, then yes I probably will.. lol

However I doubt I'd be in this situation as I never said raise in first position with a hand like 9-10 and by first position I take it you mean UTG??? I play really tight UTG and would just fold 9-10. You can play looser as you get in the cut off and on the button as you have more info on the players that have acted in front of you and you get to make better descisions post flop.

If you have a lot of loose players left to act after you then I'd suggest folding marginal hands and tightening your range for value, don't limp in UTG with a hand like 9-10, it's just fishy and not going to be profitable in the long run.

Quote:

now you'v blown a decent amount of chips compared to if you just limped on the button and missed the flop..

If lots of other players have limped in then yes by all means OVER LIMP (there is a difference between over limping and OPEN LIMPING - open limping means you're thr first player to enter the pot & Over limping is where you limp after other players have entered the pot which isn't nessaceraly a bad play in the right circumstances).

Limping the button when it's folded round to you is just bad play and the reason it's bad is because you're cutting down your chances to win the pot. If it's just the blinds left to act then you can win them there and then with a raise as they'll have junk way more often than they'll have a hand, you can win on the flop with a c-bet, or you can flop a great draw or disguised hand and build a huge pot when you want to.

As you improve as a player you'll start to spot the fish by the fact that they limp/ call a lot and they are easy to beat, in fact that is where most good players make their money in poker.

The whole point of my post was that if you are the FIRST player to enter the pot (and that could be in any position depending on the action - it's folded to you) and you have a hand that is WORTH PLAYING in that position (so not too loose in early position) then it's more profitable to raise than it is to limp. The reasons why are stated in my original post.

Hope that helps if you are still unsure or any hypothetical situations then please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to help.

Broker

Brokerstar · #8 (**permalink**) 06-24-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natin

it depends on the table, why would you raise in first position with 9-10 suited you get 4-5 callers then completly miss the flop, try your shitty continuaton bet and som1 comes way over the top, your going to call? now you'v blown a decent amount of chips compared to if you just limped on the button and missed the flop...

I've just noticed that you play 2/4NL?

Can I ask on what site and what your screen name is? Would be fun to play sometime....

KRE8R · #9 (**permalink**) 06-24-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natin

it depends on the table, why would you raise in first position with 9-10 suited you get 4-5 callers then completly miss the flop, try your shitty continuaton bet and som1 comes way over the top, your going to call? now you'v blown a decent amount of chips compared to if you just limped on the button and missed the flop...

Yeah but this is entirely table and player dependent. Some tables and players you wouldnt want to cbet and others you would.

pokerfan19 · #10 (**permalink**) 07-05-2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokerstar

I'm not really sure what you're talking about???

If you think a C-bet is a 'shitty play' then please come and play at my table.. lol

Secondaly you asked am I going to call if someone comes over the top? Over the top of what? you gave no example of a flop? If the flop is A99, then yes I probably will.. lol

However I doubt I'd be in this situation as I never said raise in first position with a hand like 9-10 and by first position I take it you mean UTG??? I play really tight UTG and would just fold 9-10. You can play looser as you get in the cut off and on the button as you have more info on the players that have acted in front of you and you get to make better descisions post flop.

If you have a lot of loose players left to act after you then I'd suggest folding marginal hands and tightening your range for value, don't limp in UTG with a hand like 9-10, it's just fishy and not going to be profitable in the long run.

If lots of other players have limped in then yes by all means OVER LIMP (there is a difference between over limping and OPEN LIMPING - open limping means you're thr first player to enter the pot & Over limping is where you limp after other players have entered the pot which isn't nessaceraly a bad play in the right circumstances).

Limping the button when it's folded round to you is just bad play and the reason it's bad is because you're cutting down your chances to win the pot. If it's just the blinds left to act then you can win them there and then with a raise as they'll have junk way more often than they'll have a hand, you can win on the flop with a c-bet, or you can flop a great draw or disguised hand and build a huge pot when you want to.

As you improve as a player you'll start to spot the fish by the fact that they limp/ call a lot and they are easy to beat, in fact that is where most good players make their money in poker.

The whole point of my post was that if you are the FIRST player to enter the pot (and that could be in any position depending on the action - it's folded to you) and you have a hand that is WORTH PLAYING in that position (so not too loose in early position) then it's more profitable to raise than it is to limp. The reasons why are stated in my original post.

Hope that helps if you are still unsure or any hypothetical situations then please feel free to ask and I'll do my best to help.

Broker

I agree with most of this... limping in just gives more people a chance to see the flop