Limit Queens Hand

the alex · #1 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 06:27 PM

20/40 at Trump last night. 10% rake $20 max. We're 7 handed and only 2 20/40 games are going at this time. The game's a tad tighter than normal, but this hand was with 2 more active players. I'd say that the avg. pot is 5-7BB's and maybe 4 hands seeing heads up showdowns per orbit, one with 3 people @ showdown and a couple w/o showdown.

I'm in MP with

. UTG folds. UTG+1 (aggressive late, tighter early) calls. I raise it ups. CO folds. Button folds. SB folds. BB (loose calling station)calls. UTG+1 calls.

Flop (7SB's- $14)

BB checks. UTG+1 bets. I _________

How's my pair?
How's my flush draw?
Is this an obvious call or an obvious raise with my position to get a free river running the risk of giving someone with a better heart a free river?
Do I play this like a flush/gutshot draw? Or like TP?

I feel that both players would check a flush to me, but would definitely bet a pair of Jacks or trips, especially with the

or the

as their kicker.

Have at it. What do you honestly think here? I might tell you guys what I did and what happened, but I'd rather not tell unless there's not much dissent and there's a general consensus or the arguments are clear on every side of the coin, so please don't ask for results.

Steve-O · #2 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 06:39 PM

well... either call all the way down and find out where you're at then or fold and move on.

betting into a pre-flop 3 better, hmmm, might have 88, 99, TT, JJ, AK with a heart, and of course KK or AA are a possibility.

probably wouldn't play AJ offsuit by your description so i would eliminate a pair and a flush draw. AQ is also a slim possibility.

my guess is trips or TT with the ten of hearts. but I'd be concerned about the loose BB having a piece of this flop too.

Adding it all up I fold, I definetly don't want to call here and raising could really cost me, and of course there is the strong possibility you DON'T want to improve.

NoManner · #3 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 06:48 PM

Not any good at limit, but I'd say raise here and be ready to dump when BB flat calls and checks again on the turn. Playing either flush/straight draw or TP you raise anyway shouldn't you? Raising saves you a bet on the turn if BB or UTG+1 has good and just leaves your turn play more open depending on the next card to come.

the alex · #4 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 06:54 PM

UTG+1 limped PF, Steve. I raised it to $40. I didn't 3 bet.

How is this changing your thought process? There are a little more than 7SB's in the pot after the rake. Does the 2 bets make it worth a call or a test raise more or does the smaller pot reinforce the fold for you?

Is the TP/flush draw more of a possibility now or are you still ruling this out and what does this tell you to do?

Steve-O · #5 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 07:03 PM

well now it's a lot harder to read his hand is all. My decision remains the same though.

Limps first in shorthanded eh? interesting.

Quote:

Is the TP/flush draw more of a possibility now or are you still ruling this out and what does this tell you to do?

definetly more likely but even if I'm best at the moment I don't like my chances of holding up if I am so how in front.

Steve-O · #6 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 07:10 PM

They rake the 20/40 up to $20???????????? is this correct?

this is outlandish!!!!! I wouldn't play this game with someone elses money.

this game should either have a $5 max rake or be timed.

the alex · #7 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O

Limps first in shorthanded eh? interesting.

This was fishy to me as well, but he's a fairly passive early position player PF and that always messes with my head with this guy. He one of those passive early PF guys that are not afraid to bet/raise to see where he's at on the cheap street at any time, though.

The BB's check can mean anything as well. I had definitely ruled out the possibility of AQ with the

, me having 2 Queens in the hole and I would think he opens with a raise PF, but I think he limps here with AK, but with AK and the

, I don't think he's betting the flop with 2 people seeing this flop.

He has a hand of some sort and it's unclear to me whether he's value betting trips as I would see him raising with JJ PF, and limp/raising with AA or KK. The BB would re-raise me PF with AA-99, AK and AQ of any sort and would check/call a big draw, bet trips, and check raise a non nut flush and the only real possibility there that I see would be

.

These hearts on the board help me to narrow down their range because of their ranks. If this is a 7 high all heart flop, it's a different story.

I'm just trying to be as clear as possible and see the factors in people's decision making here. Any changes? Anyone with any new thoughts?

Thanks, Steve.

the alex · #8 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O

They rake the 20/40 up to $20???????????? is this correct?

this is outlandish!!!!! I wouldn't play this game with someone elses money.

this game should either have a $5 max rake or be timed.

I'm not a fan of this either. I would understand $10 and we got a relief to $10 shortly after this hand, but on a rainy Monday night with the Cubs in town, the Sox playing, and the basketball games after an absolutely beautiful weekend, there wasn't much going on and there was one tough 20/40 game that rakes $10 max. at Harrah's and a couple of 10/20 games along with a couple of $500 NLHE game and the $2k PLO game and I've said that I'm staying away from big bet poker for a bit. I didn't wanna play that 20/40 game or 10/20 and called over to Trump which is on the other side of the river and they said that 2 20/40 games were going and no 30/60 game. The "big game" was 50/100.

I don't have the array of choices so often as you do, Steve and I probably should've stayed home and played online, but this was such a beatable game when I sat and this hand was about 4 hours into the session and as I said, the game had tightened up over the last half hour and was going fast. I left soon after the relief, went home, and grabbed some much needed shut-eye.

I normally play the 30/60 game, but it wasn't going and this game has a $20 cap which is pretty odd. The room is only about 30-35 tables deep and only 10 or so were going when I got there at 8PM. They lower the rakes on the weekend by about 50%, but I look at this as raising it during the week.

The only timed games that can be found anywhere in the area are all of the big bet games, featured games, and in clubs.

Steve-O · #9 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 07:31 PM

OK so the BB's range of hands is anything playable but would be 9s and down and AJ and down.

taking into account the pre-flop and flop action the EP player could have 88, 99, TT, AJ woth the ace of hearts AT with either the ten or ace of hearts and you think he could also be playing KJ/KT type hands as well.

against the EP player only it would be a simple raise but the BB is a wildcard in the hand.

4 scenarios I see unfolding

#1 you are ahead and have the best draw - if this is the case you get no more action and probably take down the pot, 5-10% chance this is the case

#2 you are behind with the best draw - I don't like playing this because only a ten gives you the nuts so hitting any draw doesn't reaaly allow you to bet or raise confidently. I don't like drawing to a hand that if I hit I can't bet. 30-35% chance

#3 you are ahead but your opponents are on draws - Ughhh your hand is too vulnerable to play unless some low black cards hit, other than the Ten of hearts there is no card higher than 8 that is a "good" card for you. too many scare cards here. 30-35% chance

#4 you are drawing practically dead - no explanation needed. 25-30% chance

of the likely scenarios the best is when you are on the best draw. I gotta fold this up on the flop.

Of course I'm going by very limited player information

Steve-O · #10 (**permalink**) 05-10-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

I don't have the array of choices so often as you do, Steve and I probably should've stayed home and played online. I normally play the 30/60 game, but it wasn't going and this game has a $20 cap which is pretty odd. The room is only about 30-35 tables deep.

The only timed games that can be found anywhere in the area are all of the big bet games, featured games, and in clubs.

well it is stupid to use white chips on a 20/40 table, which they would have to do to rake less but my god thats a steep rake you play with.

this game should be timed, $5 every half hour. but of course the club would go from about $300-$400 an hour to $70-$100. but I couldn't even imagine the uproar at the woods if they tried to implement that rake! I remember the petition to reinstate the kill in the 2/4 omaha 8 game or cut their rake which caps at $4.