Played a little of this at the 1/2 level at Paradise last night and think I might have found the proper outlet for my inner maniac. Either that or I was incredibly fortunate and found a table that had even less of a clue what it was doing than I did.

Either way, the profit spends the same

Seriously though, I have read the stuff in SS (do I have to start calling it SS1 now?) on draw and know some of the basics like mixing up your draws to disguise the true nature of your hand, basic opening and raising requirements based on position and other stuff. But I did find a recurring scenario last night that I want to ask about and get feedback on (yes, the answer might be buried in SS1 somewhere...I didn't go back and re-read last night after I finished playing)

When you hold a pair AND a four-to-a-straight or a four-to-a-flush -- say a hand like J-J-T-9-8 -- what are you looking at to determine whether to hold the pair and draw for trips/two pair vs. breaking up your pair and drawing to the straight/flush? Against one player I usually just draw to improve the pair whereas if it was a multi-way pot or if it was raised pre-flop then I'm almost always drawing for the straight/flush. But even this makes for a dicey situation when, for instance, I've raised on the button with K-K-x-x-x where four are of the same suit. The BB and the two limpers before me had all called the raise and then all three of them draw three, indicating that they started on pairs. What do folks do here...break what might have been the best pair to start things and draw to the flush (your draw of 1 represents a two-pair and gives you a chance to win via a bluff if its checked around to you as the raiser) or just draw three to the kings (gives you the chance to win the pot uncontested if its checked around to you...you can just check on the end if you don't improve to better than the kings).

It was a fun game...don't think I've finished a session at any other form of poker with a 62% raising rate for the session.

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:cool:

To be successful in business, surround yourself with professionals. To be successful in poker, surround yourself with idiots.

Will, you have about a 7.5:1 odds of hitting the set and about a 4.3:1 odds of hitting the flush or straight.

If you miss the flush or straight you have nothing or a weak pair, how often does just JJ or just KK hold up?

Against one opponent unraised, JJ is borderline and not something I'd bet after the flop in most instances. The KK scenario is a bit different...if nobody's raised to you on the button and then everyone draws 3 into you, you've got to think your KK was probably the best starting hand and everyone is drawing to catch you (there's an off chance the BB starts with aces, but if either of the limpers before you held them you'd expect to see a raise)

Basically I guess it comes down to how often will one of the three people you're against hit their 7.5:1 shot while you miss yours to improve. (does that 7.5:1 figure include the chances to improve to two pair or is that strictly the chance to hit trips?)

__________________
:cool:

To be successful in business, surround yourself with professionals. To be successful in poker, surround yourself with idiots.

That is a set or better, and is not exact, but it should be roughly the same as flopping a set right? You do know 3 more cards, but it shouldn't effect the odds that much.


It is actually 7:1 for catching a set or better.

Yeah, that sounds about right...SS has a huge odds section in back specifically on 5 card draw that I'll peek at tonight...if it says something majorly different I'll post.

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:cool:

To be successful in business, surround yourself with professionals. To be successful in poker, surround yourself with idiots.

Please don't, PM and let my edit my message

Actually, I can check Mike Caro's page ....

4-OAK 0.27% 375:1
Full House 1.03% 95.6:1
Set 11.19% 7.93:1

I got about 12.5% for trips or better, so that is the same.
About another 16% or 5:1 to get a two pair.

Man, you guys should learn by now......

You're right, sorry aobut that man.

Gonna have to start calling you Sklansky Jr. or something Beav Seriously though, I appreciate it man.

__________________
:cool:

To be successful in business, surround yourself with professionals. To be successful in poker, surround yourself with idiots.

Please don't, PM and let my edit my message

Actually, I can check Mike Caro's page ....

4-OAK 0.28% 359:1
Full House 1.02: 97.3:1
Set 11.43% 7.75:1
Two Pair 15.99% 5.26:1


I got about 12.5% or 12.8% depending on how I calculated it for trips or better, so that is about the same - 6.8:1

Go big or go home
while holding those hands i would always try to draw for the straight or the flush.. because you have more outs of hitting your oesd or you flush draw then you have to hit trips or two pair. Plus i'd rather be holding a flush or a straight to a three of a kind..