Implied odds in tournaments

**Beavis68** · 04-03-2005

there was a discussion on 2+2 about a player limping with AA.

Paul Phillips piped in with a comment about the problem with raising with AA in this spot early on is the reversed implied odds.

This reminded me of Doyles, win a small pot or lose a big one. Of course that was about cash games, but early tournaments are a lot like cash games.

Lets give an example:

UB 100+9 tourney, everyone has about 2500 (they give more chips in the high buy-in event) in chips blinds still 5/10.

Three limpers to you, and you have AA, 45 chips in the pot. If you raise it to 50. You have now defined your self as having a pretty big hand, and your opponents are getting 50:1 impieds odds to call you.

It would be correct for any pair, and suited connectors to call you, maybe even some plain suited hands.

Now, you get two calleder, ~200 in the pot.

Flop comes

Even if you bet the full put, you are still giving your oppopent over 12:1 in implied odds to call you.

This is why Daniel N. calls raises with crap like Q4s He knows he can get someones stack for a small investment.

I wonder what you guys think of this and how you handle it? How do you deal with playing big pairs early in a tournament?

**bonchkid** · 04-03-2005

Raising in that spot had reverse implied odds if you would ONLY do it with AA-QQ. Raymer noted he would raise quite a few hands in that situation so raising wouldn't automatically means he has a big hand.

Originally Posted by Beavis68

You have now defined your self as having a pretty big hand, and your opponents are getting 50:1 impieds odds to call you.

Thats if you can't get off aces..

**bonchkid** · 04-03-2005

Another reason the he folded when Harmen bet out the flop was because of the multiple limpers BEHIND him. If he says himself the fold would probably be incorrect.

**Beavis68** · 04-03-2005

I did not want to discuss that specific hand, but some of the concepts around it, and how players deal with them.

**Bobby** · 04-03-2005

dosent raising pre flop make the hand eaisier to play post flop?

if you limp with AA you will probably play the pot against multiple limpers, also you will have relatively little idea what hands they have and how they have been affected by the board.

if you raise pre flop you play against fewer opponents and with more of an idea what they have (maybe including hands which have correct implied odds against AA).

also if your opponent is drawing e.g. to a flush he does not have implied odds to call a pot sized bet if you will not call your entire stack when the draw hits.

i prefer to raise to make my post flop decisions easier.

**Beavis68** · 04-03-2005

you dont even have to call your whole stack.

Say the pot is 200 you bet 200, he is getting 2:1 immediate odds, and only needs to get another 600 out of you.

**itsMrHankey2u** · 04-03-2005

This logic tells me I should chase any flush or straight because I should be able to get all the chips from an opponent with top pair or better. If it is such a problem to raise 50 or so with aces, raise more. Raise 100, 150, all-in. Maybe I just don't understand the logic. Daniel Negreanu will raise and call raises with shit because of his ability to read people and out play them on the flop. Not every average joe can do that and shouldn't be advised to.

**Bobby** · 04-03-2005

Originally Posted by Beavis68

you dont even have to call your whole stack.

Say the pot is 200 you bet 200, he is getting 2:1 immediate odds, and only needs to get another 600 out of you.

i would prefer to be in this situation than in a family pot with no idea what anyone has and fighting over a small pot.

**bonchkid** · 04-03-2005

(I've been assuming most or all of the players at the table are pretty good)

Originally Posted by Bobby

dosent raising pre flop make the hand eaisier to play post flop?

It sure does. For your opponents. Raising here identifies your hand to a very small selection for most players. A good player would take a flop with any 2 decent cards because its likely you can't get off your AA.

If there is a raise behind you there are 2 scenarios.
1.) The button raises and another player or two call that raise. Here you need to raise enough to get close to all-in or just push. If you limp-reraise in this pot you're screaming AA.
2.)The button raises and everyone else folds to you and you can close the action. Calling here isn't a bad play because its not obvious as to what you are holding.

**Bobby** · 04-03-2005

maybe i am used to playing with weak opponents who do not put you on such a small range of hands when you raise and who are not sophisticated enough to

'take a flop with any 2 decent cards because its likely you can't get off your AA'

maybe this issue is dependant on table type also, if there are a lot of passives and there is unlikely to be a raise behind you i feel you should raise to get money in the pot.

harrington says you want to get more money in the pot but fewer players.

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