KRE8R and I have been having a debate about this and I want some discussion on it... completing the SB with marginal or drawing hands. Just for the sake of it, we'll use two hands, KJo and 45s.

I'm going to make a few assumptions which I think are pretty fair and we can all agree on

-it's a limped pot
-it is at least 3 way, usually 4
-we're looking to hit two pair or better, eg Q33 flop with 34
-a massive draw to stack off with

Say NL25, with the BB and 3 limpers, you've posted the small blind, you're getting 7.3:1 to call. Along with implied odds, this seems pretty attractive, but...

-we're not finishing the action pre flop, BB can still raise, in which case we're almost always folding
-we're going to be OOP for the rest of the hand
-micro limits are looser than hookers, it's a limped pot, so peoples ranges are literally any two cards
-there are sure to be a bunch of other drawing hands in the pot
-people are very passive

Calling pre flop is cheap and gives pretty good odds for when you do hit, but combined with above I can't see it being terribly profitable.

Basically what it comes down to is

-how often do you flop a monster draw, two pair or better? I'm not sure on the maths on this... some help would be good
-you end up playing an unraised multiway pot OOP, I can't think of many more worse things to do
-you are often likely to be up against other draws
-times you flop bottom two to top two, Q33 with 34 against A3 etc

Can some better players shed some light on this?

Originally Posted by piv

KRE8R and I have been having a debate about this and I want some discussion on it... completing the SB with marginal or drawing hands. Just for the sake of it, we'll use two hands, KJo-odds of 2cards>J pf =9% and 45s-odds of SC pf=24%,odds of flopping flush draw=11%,hitting draw=39%

I'm going to make a few assumptions which I think are pretty fair and we can all agree on

-it's a limped pot
-it is at least 3 way, usually 4
-we're looking to hit two pair or better, eg Q33 flop with 34
-a massive draw to stack off with

Say NL25, with the BB and 3 limpers, you've posted the small blind, you're getting 7.3:1 to call. Along with implied odds, this seems pretty attractive, but...

-we're not finishing the action pre flop, BB can still raise, in which case we're almost always folding- this is why we have stats, obviously it's bad to complete when the BB is 75/50 compared to 10/4
-we're going to be OOP for the rest of the hand- ya, this is bad
-micro limits are looser than hookers, it's a limped pot, so peoples ranges are literally any two cards- i think this plays to our favor as long as we have the ability to know when we're behind.
-there are sure to be a bunch of other drawing hands in the pot- So we're scared of flush over flush/straight over straight here?
-people are very passive- depends on table

Calling pre flop is cheap and gives pretty good odds for when you do hit, but combined with above I can't see it being terribly profitable.

Basically what it comes down to is

-how often do you flop a monster draw- , two pair or better? I'm not sure on the maths on this... some help would be good
-you end up playing an unraised multiway pot OOP, I can't think of many more worse things to do
-you are often likely to be up against other draws
-times you flop bottom two to top two, Q33 with 34 against A3 etc

Can some better players shed some light on this?

With 2 non-pair cards, the probability of flopping:

• At least a pair (using your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 2.1/1
• A pair (using one of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 2.5/1
• Two pair (using both of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 49/1
• Any two pair from two non-pair cards - 24/1
• Trips (using one of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 73/1
• A full house (using both of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 1087/1
• Quads (using one of your pocket cards) from two non-pair cards - 9799/1

Poker Odds Chart

Texas Holdem Odds - Probabilities for Poker Hands

I'll post more tomorrow, gotta sleep.

Originally Posted by The Real DeCoy

When you get a limpfest you also have to take into account that even if you hit your hand you may just take down a small pot when you bet and everyone folds. This is a HUGE factor to consider. I can't tell you the number of times Ive hit a limped 2 pair and won nothing or worse have had someone draw to a bigger hand like a straight or flush.

This is what I'm getting at.

I personally think there isn't anything wrong with limping the sb.

Some of my biggest pots have come from marginal hands in the SB, not to be results-oriented, but as piv stated -- we can sometimes get payed if we hit a decent hand, but lose a big pot if we get a cooler flop. But isn't this the risk of playing any hand?

Personally I raise the sb with 88+ in a limped pot, and limp the sb around anywhere from 65-75% of the time.

Originally Posted by davidab157

The problem is often that raising at this level from SB will not force out the limpers and you'll end up playing a big pot OOP with a marginal hand.

Yes, raising is suicide, its like JJ+ to raise from SB and even then it's marginal if you think you're going to get 2 callers.

Dvaid, you call or fold here?