In a lot of the threads our main differences seem to be about raising or limping pre-flop. I thought we could get a discussion going on when and why to raise certain hands in Limit Hold Em, NOT NO LIMIT

AQ - would you raise limp or foldin each scenario and why.

UTG first to act, generally 4-6 people seeing the flop for 1-2 bets only QQ, KK, or AA would re-raise.

UTG first to act, generally 1-3 people see the flop if it is raised 4-6 if no raise.

you're in MP and a semi-loose EP player has raised (this guy will call all the way)

you're on the button with 4 limpers



remeber what would you do and why

I would raise in all situations with AQ...and would re-raise in the MP scenario against the semi-loose EP raiser.

Why? With a hand like that I want to see the flop with as few people as possible and if a raise will lessen the field, then that is what I want to happen.

I find that not many players re-raise pre-flop unless they hold AA, KK or QQ so I don't mind throwing in an extra raise with AQ since it will likely get other players to slow down and think about what THEY think I have.

Originally Posted by Steve-O

UTG first to act, generally 4-6 people seeing the flop for 1-2 bets only QQ, KK, or AA would re-raise.

UTG first to act, generally 1-3 people see the flop if it is raised 4-6 if no raise.

you're in MP and a semi-loose EP player has raised (this guy will call all the way)

you're on the button with 4 limpers

1. Either/or...probably with an incline toward raising more than not. You won't thin the field, but you will get information from a three-bet that signals you to get the heck out of the action.

2. Raise..thin the field and see if you hit the flop.

3. Raise...get heads up against the ATM machine and hope your hand beats out whatever crud he's playing. If anyone comes over the top of you, try again next time.

4. Call...you have position and a raise isn't likely to drive anyone out. Disguise the strength of your hand and let the flop define how hard you push post-flop. Excellent re-raising opportunities from this position postflop.

I wrote an article on this, so I'll give the short answer for the general question and will hit the example.

There are six reasons to raise:

• Win the pot now
• Give yourself a leg up on a chance to win the pot with aggression on the next street
• Value
• Narrow the field
• Isolate the raiser/go HU
• Gain information/test the field with the intention of folding to a re-raise
• Gain information/test the field to know which cards are safe for you to catch if you elect to call a re-raise and know that you're beat to narrow your margin of error in your pot odds calculations.

AQ

1.) UTG first to act, generally 4-6 people seeing the flop for 1-2 bets only QQ, KK, or AA would re-raise.

This is a raise or fold situation to me, but I'd raise in order to gain information/test the field with the intention of folding to a re-raise. 67% of the time, I can be 30% to win, but if I'm getting 4:1 outside of my 2sb's because those sb's are only there as an effort to gain information, not for value. But then I'd have to ask myself, "Why am I getting 4:1?" Anyone else with an Ace, let alone AA or AK make my odds worse and odds or not, calling increases my variance.

I'm only gonna get re-raised 1 out of 9 times and I've gotta figure that that I'm gonna win 3 out of 9 of these hands or even 7 out of 18 and I'll get the action to justify the UTG raise.

2.) UTG first to act, generally 1-3 people see the flop if it is raised 4-6 if no raise.

I'd raise in order to narrow the field. This is a table that is tight/semi-tight. Semi-tight in that when 4-6 players are limping, it is for mathematical reasons and the players respect raises, so I can narrow the field.

Another reason would be to give myself a leg up on a chance to win the pot with aggression on the [flop]. With a narrow field at a table that respects bets, many flops that don't help my hand will win me the pot on the flop, not to mention the 25-30% of the time that I will see an Ace or Queen high flop. Add in the folding equity and the folding blinds, 1-3 players will make up for my losses. Getting paid off by AJ/AT if they check/call will make up for my check/calls on the Q high flops against KK and the A high flops against AK. Future actions would be player dependent, but in the moment that I make the UTG raise, I'm playing the table.

3.) you're in MP and a semi-loose EP player has raised (this guy will call all the way)

I'm supposing that this is an aggressive PF player, so in that case, this is a no-brainer in the moment raise in order to isolate the raiser/go HU. I'll take Hellmuth's approach to the jackyl in PPLTP on this one. I have position on him and our distance from each other gives me isolation power. Again, I'd have to play this one street by street and my positioning helps me a lot to gauge my hand and if I can get paid by him. AQ is a very good, not great HU hand, but against a guy like this, my wins will be bigger than my losses.

Though, if someone is between us and has already called the raise, I'll just call and treat it like Example #4 depending on whether more have entered the pot. If the whole table is prone to loose calling PF, I'll raise to narrow the field and pay for position.

4.) you're on the button with 4 limpers

This is dependent on the limpers. I'm never raising here, but I am calling if a rock hasn't limped. My position can give me enough free information on the flop, turn, and river which makes this different from the first example.

I would list the reasons to raise as

#1 to get more money in the pot
#2 to bluff or semi-bluff
#3 to eliminate players (this includes winning the pot outright)
#4 to gain position
#5 to gain information
#6 to show false strength (a promotional raise)

in regards to my questions

UTG first to act, generally 4-6 people seeing the flop for 1-2 bets only QQ, KK, or AA would re-raise.

I'm folding this hand here, the pot is going to be multi-way and raising will not define anyones hand, especially where cold callers may have me beat

UTG first to act, generally 1-3 people see the flop if it is raised 4-6 if no raise.

here I would raise, to trim the field and gain information, limping makes this hand very hard to play after the flop, raising eliminates any crap hands

you're in MP and a semi-loose EP player has raised (this guy will call all the way)

I'm folding here, if the guy was loose I would reraise, but semi-loose is a different story. and the fact that he will call down is a blessing in disguise, it basically nullifies your position and bluff opportunities. win or lose there will be a lot of money exchanging hands. I don't like this spot at all.

you're on the button with 4 limpers

definite limp for me, agin I gain no information from a raise and only encourage bottom pair and longshot draws to call post flop when i hit top pair, with a limp it is more likely someone will bet into you allowing you to raise and trim the field, something you can't do by raising the flop.

Folding AQo to a field of loose passive players?

There is no way this can be correct.

out of position, no shot at thinning the field with a hand that plays better with fewer opponents, and there is no chance at defining anyones hand unless they re-raise. I wouldn't disagree with someone playing it, but I wouldn't suggest it, AQ is usually a fold up front for me unless the game is fairly tight.

Again this cannot be correct if your hand rates to be a favorite over the field. Same concept as raising 3 opponents with a flush draw on the flop. So what if you will only win 35% of the time? You have an edge on pot equity.

It doesn't matter in this particular hand that you MIGHT be behind, the long run is what matters.

this is where we a fundemental difference in the strength of this hand, again just because your hand rates to be the best you have no idea what the other 4 players have. So with a simulater yes you may win more than your fair share but in reality you will often be folding when you miss.

I feel the better time to get your money in the pot with this hand is post flop when you have a hand and can narrow the field.

suppose the BB comes along and the SB folds that leaves 5 opponents with 12.5 SB's in the pot, you'll hit a made hand about 33% of the time but it will usually be vulnerable and your opponents are getting great odds to chase. unless they have something they will be very shy about betting into you and you will almost never take down this pot by betting the flop on a bluff or semibluff.

if you limp and both blinds come along you have 6 opponents and 7 SB's in the pot. Like I said someone will be more likely to bet into you on the flop which will allow you to raise and trim the field, if noone bets you are in the same boat as before but with a higher likelihood of eliminating players or giving them bad odds to chase. you are also more likely to get action from a weaker Ace since you didn't raise.

Again I think this is a difference we have in poker theory, and the reason I started these threads.