One thing about this forum that I love is we don't abuse math to justify fishing. But where are spefic situations in limit or NL where implied odds are changing your decision on whether to call, raise, or fold. We've discussed this is Steve's limit threads and the situations have become scattered.

Mainly, looking to see where you guys use math to get a little creative. Whether these situations have shown profit or not, thus far, or you haven't really noticed or experimented enough to know would be helpful to know.

Some more detailed questions to begin to guide this thread?
1.) What low-medium pairs are you limping, folding, or raising with in what positions. Why?

2.) When are connectors valuable to you? What positions? When are you raising on your draws with these hands and if you don't raise, why or why not?

3.) How do your opponents affect your implied odds?

4.) Beavis had an interesting 22 hand when he used folding equity to justify raising a 4-4-Q flop? With these pairs, draws with overcards, how often do you tend to be betting using folding equity in the "equation?"

There are many other similar ideas here and I hope that I'm clear enough. We all know that maximizing and minimizing are keys and both are heavily effected when we get a little creative and predict the future a bit.

I'll talk about limit

I place pairs into 4 categories

1) 22-66 I'll play these in late position with at least 3 limpers for a single bet or attempt a blind steal only, of course if I'm in some weird game where 6 or 7 people see every flop for 1 bet I'll play them almost anywhere.

2) 77-TT I look at these hands basically the same way, except I play them in Middle and late position in a normal game and I open raise with them if the table is on the tight side, if it's a loose game and i can entice 2 or 3 people in I'll just limp.

3) JJ & QQ same as before except I always raise limpers with them and I'll reraise normal players. but depending on the action in front of me my play will change especially with JJ.

4) AA & KK no explanation needed

Connecters below 89s I'm not real fond of, the flush draws are low and you will hardly ever win with a single pair.

89s-JQs I like 4 or 5 opponents. however if I can open raise from late position I'll do it if the blind is not a chaser, and just bluff on the flop too.

I'll obviously semi bluff with position not only to try to win the pot but for the free card as well. if the pot is 2 or 3 way I'll attempt check-raises with a decent draw when i'm out of position. typically if the turn is a dud I can bluff at the pot on the turn. When I make my draw it is also nicely disguised.


Here's a spot I'll chase; 4-5 players I'm the button with

flop

if there is 8-10 bets in the pot I'll take one off here, a 6, T, or diamond would keep me interested and you'll get paid off with so many opponents.

Beavis....so that's why you pushed with pocket threes.

DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that preflop decisions are not very, very important.

What I was looking for was a little more of your flop decisions in combination with those flop decisions.

PF decisions can be justified by implied odds many times and are fairly elementary and call be well argued on either side many times because you've only seen 29% of the hand. What your game plan with certain marginal hands that aren't "video pokeresque I have this hand," but what are you thinking with certain marginal hands? What are you thinking with draws in late position on LAG/LP/TP tables? Or even early on these tables? When are overcards not to be calculated to you?

No matter what's in the hole, I don't have 2 cards on the flop, I have 5- 3 of which are shared and my hand is only as strong as the weakness of my opponents' hole cards in combination with the flop. Preflop decisions are usually not important because of the cards as much as the decisions that follow i.e. Beav's 22 hand. (I don't mean to pick on you, Beav, but that's just a good recent community example.)

post flop implied odds nave a lot to do with your opponents.

if you think when you make your flush you will be able to check raise someone than your implied odds improve, however if your opponent will check down a scare card than they are diminshed.

What are you thinking with draws in late position on LAG/LP/TP tables? Or even early on these tables? When are overcards not to be calculated to you?

with a draw on a LAG table I'm checking and calling, it's tough to get a free card, you may be reraised, its to unpredictable.

an LP table I'm playing them agressively from LP to get a free card, these opponents are easy to manipulate, and when they do have a power house they typically call and go for the check raise on the turn. HAHA i checked it down on the turn, freec card, free card!!!!!

TP table I'm aggressive as well not only for the free card but now add in semi bluffing. on a LP table a raise on the button is not a semi bluff you have no chance of taking the pot down, don't confuse a semi-bluff with a free card. on a TP table you may be able to take it down. I'd also check raise a draw from EP on a TP table as a semi bluff.

a time I'd chase is if I have 55 with the 5 of clubs and the flop is 7TQ with 2 clubs with say 5 opponents, if my 5 comes it's not helping anyones hand, and with 5 opponents I should be getting somewhere from 11-16 to 1 on my money, with good implied odds. if my pair was 88 or 99 I would fold since it completes too many hands. or if instead i didn't have the 5 of clubs since i wouldn't count this as a pure out now.

Within the past week or so I poasted a hand where I beat AAA with an OESD when He didnt raise me enough to get me out of the pot. At the time of the raise, the true odds were not there, but I knew If I hit, I was going to get teh rest of my stack in, and get paid for it, so In counting those odds, I felt it was justified. If anybody wants to crunh those numbers exactly, be my guest, but I was not using 4% on the flop, but the true 2% per out that I was getting.

Originally Posted by Steve-O

an LP table I'm playing them agressively from LP to get a free card, these opponents are easy to manipulate, and when they do have a power house they typically call and go for the check raise on the turn. HAHA i checked it down on the turn, freec card, free card!!!!!

And then you hit your obvious draw and they bet into you, you raise, and they what?... THEY RE-RAISE!!! HAHAHA!!!

Originally Posted by Steve-O

with a draw on a LAG table I'm checking and calling, it's tough to get a free card, you may be reraised, its to unpredictable.

OK. So you're in a limit game that is fairly loose, but very aggressive. A lot of pots are bring raised and 3-4 people are seeing flops. You elect to call a raise from a maniac in EP with and get called by the button (weak-tight) and the BB (loose, but tricky. switches up his aggression a lot. likes to see a lot of flops, analytical)

Flop: (9sb's)

BB checks- EP raiser bets- You _______?

What if this is an online .5/1 NL game?

- PF: EP maniacs raises to $3- You call with the same hand and get called by the button and BB.
- Flop: same. ($12.50) BB checks- EP raiser bets $10- You ________?

You have 18 outs to hit a hand:
9 Clubs
3 Tens
3 Aces
3 Queens

I think that this raises some questions.
1.) How many of these outs are alive?
2.) What are your odds to win?
3.) What are your impled odds?
4.) How much scrutiny are you placing on the river card at this point?