The continuation Bet

**phoenixdan5** · 12-12-2006

I think i need alittle big of others opinions on the continuation bet.

Say u have a hand like AK that you raised or re-raised PF with, that completly misses the flop, and seems like a pretty blank flop. However alot of ur table is lagtards and u cant really put them on a hand pf.

Is it always right to make a 1/2 pot sizish continuation bet when ur strong starting hands miss flops? Or do u just check. Obviously you take alot of pots using it, but it seems quite often you get caught.

If ur AK or another strong hand misses and u make a continuation bet that gets called, what do you do on another blank turn? Fire again? It seems often i get flat called on a blank flop then re-raised on the turn which i have to fold.

What are ur thoughts on continuation bets

**OrionPro** · 12-12-2006

Is it cash or tournament? Is the flop really completely ragged or is there some plausible straight draw at least? it's also a huge difference whether you're in position or out of position. OOP, your c-bets are much more troublesome if you get called (In position, you may get a free river card)

**phoenixdan5** · 12-12-2006

Im talking cash game in position.

Is it correct to almost ALWAYS use a continuation bet on top hands that miss?

Lets say completly missed flop for anything that would be calling. No draws? If u get called there, do you fire number 2 on the turn?

How about a FD Board. If u get called and a non flush completer comes out, do you fire number 2 again?

How about you have say AK and JQ comes out. Do you continuation bet, even tho there is a good chance someone may have hit.

Bassically,
when is it NOT right to use the continuation bet
Should you give up if u miss ur first shot

All situation having 1-2 others in the hand with u. Usually 1

**nima** · 12-12-2006

phoenixdan5,

I don't think half of pot size bet is correct at all.

Because if you bet half of the pot it leaves the room open for other players to easily bluff and you have to fold (most of the time).

What I like to do myself is to bet about 2/3 or 3/5 of the pot. Large enough that it makes it hard (dangerous and risky) for others to try to bluff at it, at the same time small enough that if someone goes on top (all in) I can easily fold.

If you bet and get called then you can be sure that the other guy has a part of the flop (or overpair or strong draw), and you can slow down on the turn.

But on the flop I like to bet more than half the pot (but not close to a full pot).

Cheers,
Nima

**the alex** · 12-12-2006

Nima's right, Dan.

In position, HU to nasty flop against LAG's, I'll half-pot only because they play raise/fold poker. If I raised in EP, not from the blinds, I'll do it under these conditions, too.

Otherwise, you wanna CB at least 2/3PS and refrain from doing it with 3 other people in the hand without a hand yourself. Three way, you want position and with a non-combo draw, just check behind and take off a free one.

The issue does go back to PF actions in that you might be raising too many limpers or re-raising with too many already in the pot. If someone raises in front of you after limpers, they have a hand. That's fundamental to the Gap Concept which was more tournament and limit related until recently where people have begun to play cash games like tournaments before the flop. There's nothing wrong with going multiway with AK/AQ/KQ and all kinds of suited connectors, especially in the loose-passive games that you're playing. Same goes for Queens and Jacks OOP and TT-22 in position.

If people are calling stations, play poker with them. Take flops with hands that flop well and get your value postflop more instead of putting yourself in positions where I see you constantly putting yourself between a rock and a hard place before the cards even come out.

**OrionPro** · 12-13-2006

Originally Posted by phoenixdan5

Im talking cash game in position.

Is it correct to almost ALWAYS use a continuation bet on top hands that miss?

Almost always yes. Sometimes you might miss the flop, but the turn card could help you a lot. If you have a straight draw, imo it's better to try making the straight then take down the pot immediately.

**tightagressive** · 12-14-2006

generally, cbet when heads up. i dont like to cbet 2 people unless the flop is good. (unless you have a strong draw, this randomizes your cbets enough that it will keep people guesing and not always fold when you bet into multiple people)

dont cbet scary flops. if you have AK and the flop comes like 98J all spades and you dont have a spade, just surrender the hand. you dont need to take every damn pot.

if you have a hand that is reasonable and might be good, but a bet would fold all better hands, sometimes you should try to just show the hand down. like if you raise with 55 OTB and the big blind calls who is a reasonably bad, loose player, and the flop comes like K T 3, i wouldnt cbet here. just risk some free cards and sometimes try to show the hand down. this also shows the table you arent a nut, and should give your cbets more credit.

think about what you are representing when you are 2barreling and 3barreling. you raise preflop. the flop comes K22. a player checks, and you bet 2/3 the pot. he thinks, then calls. the turn is a 4. he checks, and you have 98o. you cannot win by showing down (well, maybe, some people are really good) in order for you to get called on the flop, the player would have to have at least a pair. in order for him to call on the turn, he has to have at least a king(or, be awful, in which case you wouldnt try to bluff him, ever). this is a very good spot to 2 barrel. you are representing a king. you dont bet TT here.

however, the flop comes something like 6s Ts Jh, i would generally not 2 barrel this flop, the player who calls on the flop has a much wider range, with alot of hands he calls with on the turn. plus if you have AK you can take the free card and get a hand with some good showdown value if you hit an A or K that isnt a spade, or the Q for the nuts.

once my 2barrel is called, i generally need a read in order to continue. against an unknown player i have to shut down usually, but if i i have history with the player and its reasonable for me to think that he thinks he cant call a river bet, i would bet the river.

i generally do not 3barrel though, i tend to get called every single time, its something i need to work on (also, its why i am generally playing tournaments now, i am bad at bluffing in online ring games.

half the pot is a really bad size to bet. something to keep in mind is make your bets the same as how they have been(and they should be 2/3, to the full size of the pot). dont bluff 2/3 with nothing and pot it when you flop top pair and are trying to protect your hand.

there is more but pokerstars is rigged and i need sleep, gl dan

oh something else to keep in mind is that people at your limits are not going to fold as much because i cant imagine too many people play seriously for less than $50. and hell people can barely play seriously for 200, so just be aware when you are at a table where people dont like to fold.

**the alex** · 12-14-2006

I wouldn't double barrel in a game $400 or lower. The concept of double-barrelling is effective against aggressive flop-floaters. You double barrel to tell them that they can't call your flop bet and take on the turn. When it's done, it's done to tame a beast for a while. It's not optimal for pot after pot after pot through a whole session.

There's also the board to consider. When an FD is out, don't double barrel an aggressive player. In PT/PO standards, I don't mean 2+ aggressors, I mean the real aggressors- the 2.7+ players. You're donating to them on the turn. In terms of double and triple barrelling calling stations, it's pointless because they're not gonna stop calling, so bet for value. Don't fire on a calling station without showdown value on the turn and when these draws miss on the river, don't take away your showdown value with a third barrel that only gets called when you're beat. Calling stations generally don't bet and this can be very good for a lot of your hands that have some showdown value because if you're playing optimally, you're playing less hands than the calling station meaning they usually have worse hands.

Back to your original question of AK and CB'ing, ~20% of all starting hands contain 2 Broadway cards. As great as AK is, 3-way when the flop comes down QT6, you don't wanna kill your reverse implied odds. You have 4-10 outs and the gap between 4 and 10 is extremely wide which is why you wanna exercise pot controlling methods as opposed to pummeling people with bets that will be called and you're unaware of where you stand.

HU, in position, you can bet for the free river. 3-way, you can bet 2/3 for the free river half the time or take off a free one. OOP, check and evaluate 3-way. HU, make the CB. You either (a) have the best hand, (b) are against people more scared of that flop than you are with a hand that beats you, (c) will get called and be drawing to 4-7 outs not knowing if your other 3 are the Ace or the King if you even have 7, or (d) get raised having 4-7 outs.

As bad a (c) and especially (d) look, it isn't bad at all. You never wanna be on the call in NLHE in any position, let alone OOP. This is the hypothetical QT6 flop. Against a ragged unpaired flop, you're in great shape HU, but would still like to take it down on the flop OOP and in position, you still have showdown value if the turn's a scare card and depending on your opponent, it could scare him more OOP. 3-way, if the board is paired 9 or higher with a big card, back off. 7-T, be in position and 6 or lower, you can fire half OOP, check half OOP, and fire always in position for one stab. Against flop-floaters, if the board is bad for you, make them regret giving you a free turn when you're unsure. AK flops well, but not all the time. It's why you wanna see 5 cards or no cards with AK in tournaments when the M's get down.

Every bet you make is made to either (a) get called for value or (b) win the pot right there. In limit, you bet more for (a) and in NL/PL, you bet more for (b). Raised pots are very large in NL/PL in relation to the blinds even though they don't seem so when you drag a pot that's a 1/10th of a stack with middle set. Just because you didn't stack someone doesn't mean that a goal wasn't accomplished which was to turn a little into a lot and take the pot. This goes back to another thread of yours where I said (I think in regards to PF raising) that before you put chips into the pot, you have to ask yourself specific questions:

- What do I want?
- Can I get it?
- How can I get it?

**xxdemexx** · 12-15-2006

Originally Posted by the alex

I wouldn't double barrel in a game $400 or lower. The concept of double-barrelling is effective against aggressive flop-floaters. You double barrel to tell them that they can't call your flop bet and take on the turn. When it's done, it's done to tame a beast for a while. It's not optimal for pot after pot after pot through a whole session.

There's also the board to consider. When an FD is out, don't double barrel an aggressive player. In PT/PO standards, I don't mean 2+ aggressors, I mean the real aggressors- the 2.7+ players. You're donating to them on the turn. In terms of double and triple barrelling calling stations, it's pointless because they're not gonna stop calling, so bet for value. Don't fire on a calling station without showdown value on the turn and when these draws miss on the river, don't take away your showdown value with a third barrel that only gets called when you're beat. Calling stations generally don't bet and this can be very good for a lot of your hands that have some showdown value because if you're playing optimally, you're playing less hands than the calling station meaning they usually have worse hands.

Back to your original question of AK and CB'ing, ~20% of all starting hands contain 2 Broadway cards. As great as AK is, 3-way when the flop comes down QT6, you don't wanna kill your reverse implied odds. You have 4-10 outs and the gap between 4 and 10 is extremely wide which is why you wanna exercise pot controlling methods as opposed to pummeling people with bets that will be called and you're unaware of where you stand.

HU, in position, you can bet for the free river. 3-way, you can bet 2/3 for the free river half the time or take off a free one. OOP, check and evaluate 3-way. HU, make the CB. You either (a) have the best hand, (b) are against people more scared of that flop than you are with a hand that beats you, (c) will get called and be drawing to 4-7 outs not knowing if your other 3 are the Ace or the King if you even have 7, or (d) get raised having 4-7 outs.

As bad a (c) and especially (d) look, it isn't bad at all. You never wanna be on the call in NLHE in any position, let alone OOP. This is the hypothetical QT6 flop. Against a ragged unpaired flop, you're in great shape HU, but would still like to take it down on the flop OOP and in position, you still have showdown value if the turn's a scare card and depending on your opponent, it could scare him more OOP. 3-way, if the board is paired 9 or higher with a big card, back off. 7-T, be in position and 6 or lower, you can fire half OOP, check half OOP, and fire always in position for one stab. Against flop-floaters, if the board is bad for you, make them regret giving you a free turn when you're unsure. AK flops well, but not all the time. It's why you wanna see 5 cards or no cards with AK in tournaments when the M's get down.

Every bet you make is made to either (a) get called for value or (b) win the pot right there. In limit, you bet more for (a) and in NL/PL, you bet more for (b). Raised pots are very large in NL/PL in relation to the blinds even though they don't seem so when you drag a pot that's a 1/10th of a stack with middle set. Just because you didn't stack someone doesn't mean that a goal wasn't accomplished which was to turn a little into a lot and take the pot. This goes back to another thread of yours where I said (I think in regards to PF raising) that before you put chips into the pot, you have to ask yourself specific questions:

- What do I want?
- Can I get it?
- How can I get it?

my contribution...yep..

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