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Go Back PokerForums.org > Strategy Discussion > General Poker Strategy > Position...whats the big deal?

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2006, 03:09 PM
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As a novice learning the game, you'll need to begin to understand that your hand is only as strong as the others you're against are weak. For a generic example, hitting a K-Q-2 flop with AK is completely different in early position than in late position because in late position, people have already told you whether they like that flop or not.

What we already know about position:

Play tight and protective in the front while playing aggressive and more mathematical in the back for these reasons:

1.) In the back, the pot is already built for you. In the front, you need to build it.

2.) In the back, you know how everyone is going to approach the rest of the hand from their actions. In the front, you really have little to no idea what will happen after you act based on this singular hand with this singular flop.

3.) In the back, you can trap. In the front, you get people trying to trap you and bluff you.

4.) Before the flop, we go back to #2 in that our hand becomes stronger, the more weakness we've already seen- and the stronger our hand is, the more likely we are to win the pot.

There are many more reasons to delve into, but those are the basics.

What is not utilized by many averge to above average players:

The thing is that most people know what I said above and how you treat position should not be your cards, but how your opponents are using their position. Are they following the Hand Grouping "rules" or not? Yes, you can't see their cards, but you can observe or log the frequency at which they enter pots. You can't get Aces every hand.

Sam Grizzle: "Phil, you're just raisin' every motherfuckin' pot."
Phil Hellmuth: "I have a hand."
Sam Grizzle: "You're tellin' me you got Aces and Kings every hand."
Phil Hellmuth (with a smile): "What's wrong with that?"
Sam Grizzle (with a patronizing chuckle): "Nothin' if you can git it."

This was some infamous banter in a hand between Hellmuth and Grizzle after Hellmuth raised UTG with K9s. Grizzle trapped Hellmuth with Aces and took a nice pot. I don't remember the full details of the board cards, but Grizzle just called the raise after everyone folded in the CO with Aces.

The board was 9 high and 4 to a straight. Grizzle also cold-called the 9-hi flop for one of two reasons: (1) If Hellmuth has a mid-set, he'll keep the pot small because he plays a large quantity of small pots or (2) He wanted Hellmuth to commit himself to the pot by leading the turn to get action with a raise. What sucked for Grizzle is that the turn made 4 to a straight (I think) and the river paired the board, but Hellmuth will fire 3 bullets at the pot, so just calling doesn't leave money on the table.

Both played this hand greatly, but Grizzle used his position to get paid off and Hellmuth was using his position to isolate the field because small-pot poker is best executed in heads-up pots. He controlled the size of the pot with top pair, but more importantly, he controlled the pot with a difficult hand to fold. Even more importantly, he controlled the action with the worst hand to a board.

Early position (1st 2 positions in 6max.- 1st 3 in a 10 handed game):
If your oppponents are playing less early than they are late, they're more prone to respect your EP aggression. Most of them are not observant of how often you're in a hand. For this reason, raising with AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, and TT-22 will get you in trouble because they won't re-raise with AK, AQ, QQ, and JJ. Even worse, they can much better trap you with Aces and Kings.

Bob (xxdemexx) has said a lot of times on these boards that he'd rather raise with 78s UTG than with AQ. That's because you will represent a stronger starting hand by taking the early lead with a hand that flops well, control the pot on the flop, take pots on the flop, and if not you'll get paid on the turn and river for all of your opponents' chips when you hit because that's the last hand they put you on as they look at the board and try to combine them with a UTG PF raise range.

I'm not saying that EP should be played loosely. I'm saying that if you can take control of the pots that you enter in EP, do it and do it often with hands that flop well. Medium pairs and lower along with marginal Aces and Kings do not flop well. Yes, you can back off and not CB, but then you're that guy who doesn't follow through with his actions and you will forced to drop the best hand way too much.

Middle Position (3rd and 4th to act PF, CO in 6max., and 3rd-5th in a 10-handed game):

I hate open-limping in MP. I see little to no reason for it at almost any time. This is the postion where the tone has been set a bit preflop and as long as you don't have LPP's behind you, you can play this position pretty aggressively with just about any playable hand to open the pot. Then, at times, you can set up PF and postflop check-raise traps with pairs against LAG's and TAG's behind you because your prior play in this position.

I feel that raising in this position with hands that don't flop well, but are big should be raised here to see where you're at and knock out the blinds while traps can be set very beautifully with strong drawing hands. You still have to act early postflop, but allowing the blinds to come in while you hold drawing hands is +EV because the players in LP and the blinds can sandwich you in raising wars to get you paid off after they've committed themselves or tell you cheaply that your hand is near dead.

Late Position (CO-1, CO and Button- Button in 6max.)

Yes, the CO-1 is late position. This is the best position to open-raise and the best position to re-steal in tournament PF play. LAG CO and Button play is predictable. Will you get away with it? Yes. Should you be aggressive in those 2 positions? Of course. But keep in mind that all of your opponents, good and bad, expect this and you're not sneaking up on anyone.

Big raises with big hands early in a hand are soooooooo +EV. It's hilarious to see the action you get out of sheriffs behind you- especially the blinds. This is why you should be aggressive in small pots in LP- not for picking up those small pots holding shit, but for later pots to get paid off with the nuts.

You can open-raise with any 2 that have some potential and any strong PF hand. The CO and button are the WORST positions for re-stealing. You're setting yourself up to be knocked off a hand with potential to win a huge pot by re-stealing in these 2 spots. You're also building a pot heads-up to a point where you'll win an average pot or lose a big pot. On the flipside, limping along and cold-calling raises will force people to bet your hand for you and can block CB's to a lot of flops where you can take off a free card, bet and raise weak-tight players to get a free river, or value bet the nuts on all 3 streets.

The Blinds:

I'll start with the story of how 5 Card Draw evolved. At first poker was a 5 Card Stud game with all cards down. The Draw was put in the game to induce action from bad players. That's why there are blinds in Hold 'em. The blinds are in the worst position postflop and their PF raises are treated like CO and Button raises- in other words, Rodney Dangerfield.

The blinds are the most misplayed positions in Hold 'em. These are the 2 positions where you should be uber-tight and if you're going to pick up pots, you'll need to make sizable raises to go heads up, so your hand better be worth the price. These are good positions for PF re-stealing, but you must know your opponents to do this. In the CO-1, you can get away with getting your re-rsteal cold called because you will have position on your caller. This is not the case with the blinds.

The blinds should be played aggressively or not at all. Completing the SB with drawing hands is cool, but that's about it. You're playing conservatively early to check-raise monsters later in the hand, value-raising/protecting big starting hands, and aggressively to pick up dead money against a lot of limpers prone to limp/folding.

I'll add to this. I know Bob will have some good words for this as well because he like to twist poisitional cliches around in his favor and does it very well.
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Last edited by the alex; 09-14-2006 at 03:34 PM.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2006, 03:15 PM
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somoene wanna give him some (+)rep on my behalf? I have given him too much and cant give anymore.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2006, 03:16 PM
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I love this place!
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Old 09-14-2006, 04:23 PM
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spoken like a true hustler
thanks for the info, i feel like such a rookie for pre-flop raising on the BB and SB and wondering why i was getting chewed up
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Old 09-14-2006, 05:57 PM
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My god Alex are you like some God of Poker!
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2006, 07:10 PM
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stop making me read so much alex.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2006, 12:59 AM
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position dictates the amount of information given in a hand. if your on the button heads with another dude, you both check to the flop, you have the advantage of seeing what that player does. poker is a game of aquiring information, and the person with the most information will win a majority of the time very very very basic dicription on it

Last edited by trippedupA-Town; 09-15-2006 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 09-15-2006, 06:08 AM
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Very good and informative post the_alex, you have some very good points.
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Old 09-15-2006, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gder03
somoene wanna give him some (+)rep on my behalf? I have given him too much and cant give anymore.
I did, he seriously earns it.

I'd love to have a function to print out individual posts, so I could collect them and have them to study. Bookmarking doesn't work so well if you're away from a computer.
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Old 09-15-2006, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvraine
I did, he seriously earns it.

I'd love to have a function to print out individual posts, so I could collect them and have them to study. Bookmarking doesn't work so well if you're away from a computer.
Go to this page and print:
Position...whats the big deal?

Or you could copy and paste it into a word document and print that.
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