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Big Hand, Big Pot and Small Hand, Small Pot....how does this apply to SSHE?
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08-31-2006, 05:55 AM
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Stu Ungar
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,404
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Big Hand, Big Pot and Small Hand, Small Pot....how does this apply to SSHE?
I've read in numerous books, most recently Sklansky's latest, that you want to keep pots small with your small hands and make them big with your big ones. It's an obvious concept and I'm certainly not here to dispute but I question how it applies to small stakes hold'em.
According to Sklansky, and the majority of the people on this site, a hand like top pair isn't necessarily a big hand but in SSHE it seems like TPTK can be a monster. So many people seem willing to build a big pot with hands like top pair, weak kicker or are willing to call off most of their buyin on a draw. For example, I'm at a $25NL table right now where 2 villains built a $7 pot with top pair, weak kicker and middle pair no kicker.
So am I correct in assuming that this concept does not apply to SSHE as much as it would to higher stakes or tournaments?
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08-31-2006, 06:13 AM
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Stu Ungar
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,672
Limits Played: $1-$2 NL
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Big hands = big postflop hands, not big preflop hands like many people think. That's why you often get called all the way by someone with AKo who didn't even hit the flop at all. So I think it applies to small stakes as well as high stakes.
I think Alex calls it "controlling the pot size". I love this expression, when playing cash I often think, should I check here although I hit the flop, in order to keep the pot small? Or if I have a monster in a multiway pot, what's the best way to build the pot? etc. 
Last edited by OrionPro; 08-31-2006 at 06:24 AM.
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09-01-2006, 05:12 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,617
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mr.McJ
According to Sklansky, and the majority of the people on this site, a hand like top pair isn't necessarily a big hand but in SSHE it seems like TPTK can be a monster. So many people seem willing to build a big pot with hands like top pair, weak kicker or are willing to call off most of their buyin on a draw. For example, I'm at a $25NL table right now where 2 villains built a $7 pot with top pair, weak kicker and middle pair no kicker.
So am I correct in assuming that this concept does not apply to SSHE as much as it would to higher stakes or tournaments?
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the concept DOES apply to SSHE, it applies to all forms of NL poker...
Just that theres so many inexperienced players at the low limits, that u wouldnt really be able to notice any other players utilizing it, that is, if there ARE any players smart enough too utilize it at that level (im assuming ur talking about pot control)..
in SSHE, people are so willing to create big pots with just TPTK/overpair, or to call off all their money with those hands, or even with just draws... they are the people that will raise pf, and then proceed to pot the flop, turn and river with just 1 pair.
the same people building big pots with TPTK in your games, are also the same people losing their entire stack to you when u have a sets, straights or flushes, and they cant laydown there TPTK/overpair. so this is also a good thing for you.
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09-01-2006, 05:55 AM
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Stu Ungar
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,404
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But does that not mean that the value of my mediocre hands go up since my opponents are willing to overvalue theirs? Since my opponent is willing to build a big pot with top pair/weak kicker, should I not be willing to do the same with top pair/top kicker?
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09-01-2006, 01:24 PM
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PokerForums God
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nort Side o' Shi-kawgo
Posts: 7,961
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mr.McJ
But does that not mean that the value of my mediocre hands go up since my opponents are willing to overvalue theirs? Since my opponent is willing to build a big pot with top pair/weak kicker, should I not be willing to do the same with top pair/top kicker?
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Playing TPTK overly aggressive is a huge problem a lot of players for the reason that the pot gets too large and you're forced to make unscientific break even calls or +EV calls later in the hand that don't justify the investment. This is where probe betting and table image come into play.
You'll know how to play the turn/river when you have something to give you your opponent's hand. People can often be too stubborn with a PF range and that forces big pots in situations that seem to be +EV when bad luck loses a big pot, but variance is a bitch. How often are you getting the action that you want from overbetting? Not as much as "underbetting."
I'm just talking about the flop here. When people are on draws, they think they're paying for 2 cards on the flop getting 5:2 on a flop call. Controlling the pot allows these calls to be bad and minimizes your investment in cases where getting called is marginally +EV. The fact is that once someone with a straight or flush sees the turn for 2/3rd of the pot, they'll see the river for 3/5-3/4 of the pot and this is where you get paid off on other people's draws the most.
Implied odds for your opponents come into play, but when you're in control of the pot and you don't mechanically click "bet pot" like a donkey, it's a lot harder for people to know what to expect- what you're gonna bet and what you're willing to call should they make their hand. I'm not saying that betting the pot is always bad on the flop, but mixing your various probe bets with your pot bets confuses your opponents while you can better asses where you stand in a pot. There are times and opponents where it's right to bet 125-150% of the pot on the flop and follow up only 2/3 to the pot on the turn or just push all of your money in on the turn for a bet of 3-6x the pot after a small probe on the flop.
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Last edited by the alex; 09-01-2006 at 01:27 PM.
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