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08-10-2006, 11:09 AM
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Fish
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 68
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There are a lot of reasons why you're better at cash games than tournaments. As I'm sure I've said before, limit players generally do not translate well to the no-limit lifestyle.
Cash players are much more intuitive than tournament players. A good cash player will sit back and wait, observe the table for quite a while, sort of figure everybody out and then lurk like a shark and occasionally spring out and grab a prize. We pick and choose our moments. A good tournament player has to be in the thick of things a lot more.
Cash players can be more conservative. As a cash player, you just need to score 1 good pot an hour, 1 junk pot an hour, and not give up anything substansive, and you'll do well. Tournament players need to be a bit ballsy. With the increasing blinds, the initial paring down of the fish, and (most importantly) the need to keep up with everybody's chip stacks, a tournament player needs to be a huge risk taker or else they're gonna get left in the dust. A cash player doesn't have to worry about keeping up with everybody else's stacks. So long as the cash player has enough to cover what he could potentially lose (and he knows the limits of this in advance, as there are limits on the table), he's good to go.
If you make a bad read as a cash player, you're out some money. You can get it back so long as your stack wasn't really short to begin with. If you're at a 25/50 table, you know the most you would reasonably be expected to lose would be about 350 dollars on a really bad hand. You could lose a *little* more, you could certainly lose a lot less. In a tournament, if you make one bad read or catch a bad beat? You're done. You're out. Every nickel you spent on getting into the tournament is gone, and you can't get it back.
Tournament play has a lot more variables on it dependant on luck. You have to get good cards in a reasonably short amount of time (and continue to get them). You have to initially be seated at tables with fish who are willing to give you their entire chipstack on a 2-outer draw. You have to not only get opposition with good stacks to get some good cards to play, but also get them to commit heavily to a pot...and then you have to actually be on the winning end of these huge pots.
Last edited by Greshmahg; 08-10-2006 at 11:14 AM.
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08-10-2006, 12:16 PM
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Stu Ungar
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,404
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by the alex
I'm the opposite. Hold 'em's a pretty boring game outside of the tournament setting to me unless it's a 4 or 5 handed game. There's a lot of money to be made and a lot of idiots to give it away, though.
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See that's just it, I enjoy tournaments a lot more. It's a lot more exciting when every hand you play can be your last one. I'm just a much better cash game player. This actually started to cause me trouble because I spent a lot of time (and money) playing tournaments/SnGs. I lost about $300 before I recently figured out that I need to focus on cash games to maintain/build my BR.
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09-10-2006, 09:35 AM
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Fish
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32
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i had the same problem only i was useless at sit and go cash games. sit and go cash games are tight and particular with the hands played. in sit and go cash games lets say every player is equally as good, so how can a player profit? the answer is luck. if this situation occured the lucky player could gain the chip advantage and then because everone is equally as good as each other the big stack has the advantage. he can now afford to take risks which most people can't afford to but these risks do pay off and when they do his fortunes could escalate. so with his chip advantage and a little money management he's odds on to own the table. in reality this isn't the case and there are better players than others but in general everyone plays the same in these games and so making a profit means finding the right table to sit at or just grinding it out for hours.
tourneys are different because styles of play are much more varied and you have a much better advantage of seperating the best from the rest because players widen their playing hands and vary their play. the most important things i've discovered to make for good tourney play is adjusting your play dependant on the stage of the tourney and the size of your stack along with player types your facing. when everyone is even nearer the start you basically play by the book. Make few well timed bluffs and make the most out of your best hands. you need to gain an advantage and your major advantage over any player is your stack. if you have a larger stack your play is different, you pay to see more flops preferably cheaply and you may be more inclined to steal when rag flops hit. now this may depend on tournament stage aswell. if your better than average chipstack you can't really do this an awful lot cos your still vunerable and you don't want to cripple yourself by restricting your advantage (chipstack).
what gives a tourney player the edge?
consider the following:
chipstack- this is important. it actually improves your odds when playing a particular hand. the reason being is because any chips you have above the average tourney chipstack are freerolls. think of it as gambling with money you don't have any responsibility for. it doesn't matter. but if you make it count and manage it well you can gamble more yet still profit from odds you usually wouldn't work with when short or average stacked.
Bluffing- if every player were equally as good except one, who on average could bluff sucessfully 8% better. he has the advantage and so bluffing is something to focus on. it is something that needs to be 100% perfected in order to be the best tourney player.
odds and likelyhoods- this is important and combining this with bluffing helps to make your bluffs correct due to the fact that likelihood or odds tells you that your opponent has not made his hand and even tho you havent you know you can push him off because your odds and likelihoods or calculations are up to scratch!
reading plays- this mainly comes from experience but can also be acheived by watching or examining poker. it makes life that much easier. if you can read plays 10% better than other players your that much more likely to make the right choices and so make a profit more than they would.
having a well rounded arsenal of weapons- if you know all plays and stratagies involved and used in poker and how to impliment them perfectly then you have an advantage but also reading these is part of the parcel and is good. so keep these upto scratch and your laughing.
i think i got a bit caried away! i think i'll stop now or i'll need chapters.
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09-12-2006, 08:04 PM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,706
Limits Played: $2-$4 NL
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by the alex
I'm the opposite. Hold 'em's a pretty boring game outside of the tournament setting to me unless it's a 4 or 5 handed game. There's a lot of money to be made and a lot of idiots to give it away, though.
I prefer PLO, Stud8, and lately Razz for cash, though. Hold 'em bores the shit out of me for cash. I have to play really shorthanded (or heads up) or play about 6-7 tables to keep my interest in a cash game. That's why I only play Hold 'em at the office. It's just background noise.
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ahhhh ok?
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09-12-2006, 09:03 PM
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PokerForums God
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nort Side o' Shi-kawgo
Posts: 7,961
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by trippedupA-Town
ahhhh ok?
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I tend to get bored and do stupid things in hold 'em cash games. I just prefer it as a tournament game.
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Originally Posted by FaDi
GodFadiR (12:32:45 AM): but lets be honest
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09-13-2006, 03:50 AM
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Stu Ungar
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,404
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For the record, my tournament game has really improved in the last month.

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09-13-2006, 05:18 AM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,815
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I've always played cash games as a preference - only playing tournaments when I need a break from poker...
My record on tournaments maybe slanted by the small number I play ( I have about a 60% ROI on MTTS- but I play about one a month so it doesn't count. I put down my success at these things at "not giving a dam" and being prepared to push... or just folding... (push or fold is a legitimate strategy).. Actually I do take on the odd blind attack against me but thats a different story..
I've always beefed about tournaments because - as a ring player - I know how long it takes to nail someones game - when your table switches every twenty hands or so.. and when blinds are changing the texture by the minute - you just don't have time... most moves you make get so close to busting you that pushing is often the only "move" you can make..the notion of adjust the size of your CB postflop to flop texture to get that extra 5% in ring is one thing - in tournaments its an absurd idea....
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09-13-2006, 06:00 AM
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PokerForums God
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 5,030
Limits Played: $2-$4 NL
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Quote:
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push or fold is a legitimate strategy
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In low stakes live tournaments I think push or fold is optimal strategy.
I sometimes play £30+3 10 man SNGs at local casino. Starting stacks 1000 chips, blinds 25-50 and 15 minute levels. Think I have played around 10 and don't remember every doing anything other than all in, check or fold. The table rarely has an average M of over 15. I guess you can call with small pairs in late position during 1st blind round, other than that though its fold or push.
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09-13-2006, 12:00 PM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 1,815
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by boomer182_
chipstack- this is important. it actually improves your odds when playing a particular hand. the reason being is because any chips you have above the average tourney chipstack are freerolls. think of it as gambling with money you don't have any responsibility for. it doesn't matter. but if you make it count and manage it well you can gamble more yet still profit from odds you usually wouldn't work with when short or average stacked.
Bluffing- if every player were equally as good except one, who on average could bluff sucessfully 8% better. he has the advantage and so bluffing is something to focus on. it is something that needs to be 100% perfected in order to be the best tourney player.
odds and likelyhoods- this is important and combining this with bluffing helps to make your bluffs correct due to the fact that likelihood or odds tells you that your opponent has not made his hand and even tho you havent you know you can push him off because your odds and likelihoods or calculations are up to scratch!
reading plays- this mainly comes from experience but can also be acheived by watching or examining poker. it makes life that much easier. if you can read plays 10% better than other players your that much more likely to make the right choices and so make a profit more than they would.
having a well rounded arsenal of weapons- if you know all plays and stratagies involved and used in poker and how to impliment them perfectly then you have an advantage but also reading these is part of the parcel and is good. so keep these upto scratch and your laughing.
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A few things.. I'm not so sure that if your CL or above average stack you should throw it around - particularly with marginal hands and small stacks knocking around. I know this is a common view (chip bully).
The thing is that chips in a tournament are "opportunity" - if you lose chips you reduce your opportunity for getting good hands and increase the opportunity for good hands for your opponents. I consider it wiser to conserve chips and starve the table... let the blinds force your opponents into marginal plays.
Stealing blinds I think is overatted in tournaments - you need the conjunction of too many things - the blinds have to worth it and if they are ppl fight back... The times the blinds have got to 10x my bb and a guy in late fancies an attack and promptly folds his (obvious) 3bb raise attack to my all-in -despite the fact he has pot odds to call!!!! In the very early stages blind attacks are pointless... you don't know the opposition well enough and there isn't enough on the table...
I know some estoll the merits of sophisticated playes in MTT's but the bulk of cash flows revolve about all-ins - often these are forced. As an example I logged my all-ins for a Sng (9 handed ) I won once - I pushed 36 times!! If you're stack is in the middle this often the early stages are virtually irrelevent..
I think they're fun.. but mathematically they are flawed as a game in terms of test of skill (if you play 1000's then the stats kick in but individually no.)...
Even online I rarely leave down at ring in an evening (about 1/7 is a bad session)... In tournaments you can spend three hours and bust out...
Having said that I finally spent T$10 WOW!!! ($10 is usually BB lol)(i.e free Bodog dollars last weekend.. only tournament I could get onto with the things - 170 entered and I took second for $223 real dollars BUT.. it took me 4 hours!!! lol... got to bed at 2.30on a sunday night just before work...... 
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09-13-2006, 11:14 PM
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Poker Professional
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,706
Limits Played: $2-$4 NL
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by the alex
I tend to get bored and do stupid things in hold 'em cash games. I just prefer it as a tournament game.
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i see...makes sense
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