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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2006, 08:05 AM
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Stu Ungar
 
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Default STT Theoretical Question

Ok, lets assume we're down to 4-5, and blinds aren't in the push range yet, however fairly close (say 15x BB average stack).

I'm on the button with some random garbage and it's folded to me.

Suppose SnG Analyzer tells me a push would be -EV here, does that imply that trying to steal with a 3xBB raise is also -EV?
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:09 PM
Mike McDermott
 
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I don't think so because you will still be able to get away from your hand at some point if called.
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:03 PM
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yay! somone is using sng pt!


anyways, no, you could still probably raise here, HOWEVER, you want to be playing very tight agressive in the early/middle stages.

you want a little credibility for when you need to start moving in with trash.
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Old 08-06-2006, 05:25 PM
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Stu Ungar
 
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Yeah I'm not good enough for loose aggressive anyways. The problem I had with stealing was someone moved in & I had to call due to pot odds since my hand wasn't completely hopeless - effectively this made it identical to pushing. Of course he could have called too so there's more options to consider.

Another thing since you're reading this, any idea of how to compute the equlibrium ie optimal push/call range?
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Old 08-07-2006, 10:59 PM
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Mike McDermott
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish
Yeah I'm not good enough for loose aggressive anyways. The problem I had with stealing was someone moved in & I had to call due to pot odds since my hand wasn't completely hopeless - effectively this made it identical to pushing. Of course he could have called too so there's more options to consider.

Another thing since you're reading this, any idea of how to compute the equlibrium ie optimal push/call range?
it is in no way identical to pushing. when you push, you can win the hand in 2 ways: you win the showdown, or nobody calls.

IMPORTANT TOURNAMENT RULE:
if you think your hand rates to be best and you are thinking of raising preflop, but you think somone might come over the top(in a SNG like scenario where the blinds are big compared to stacks), JUST GO ALL IN YOURSELF.
why?

say you have some sort of hand like AQo. you have a pretty reasonable table image, nobody thinks you are wild, but everyone is aware of the power of the button raise, and the fact that you might steal preflop. you have 10k chips and it is down to 4 handed. the CL has 20k, 2 other players have 15k. basically, you are the shortie on the money bubble, but you can put a large dent in the CL, and a bigger dent into the other 2.

lets say, 300/600 blinds w/ no ante for simplicity sake. CO folds and its you on the button with AQo. you have 10k, more than 10 big blinds... whats your play? lots of people here would make some sort of 3x bb raise. this is not as good of a play as pushing all in. lets say the SB has 77, and thinks there is a very reasonable chance you are stealing, and will fold to an all in re raise(this is a reasonable play, if you are stealing like 50% of the time, and will fold) 77 will get to move you all in, and will be the favorite when you call with AQo (you have to call)

HOWEVER. if you had moved in yourself, 77 would have folded (and they would have folded the best hand) because there is no chance to move you off your hand, they will basically be a coin flip (or, crushed) for their tournament life. they know this.
most players would call on the bubble with 77 though, even though your play should be super super super tight on the money bubble of a sng. you can push alot of hands, but only risk your stack calling all ins with premium hands.

do you see now how powerfull moving in is? and this example works with alot of hands. in this scenario, you would probably rather move in with 56s than make a 3X bb raise. (how good of a play pushing is completely depends on the calling ranges of the blinds, fyi, that was just an example)

if you make some sort of raise, you are committed to the pot, and lose LOTS of equity that you had pushing all in before the flop(because you have to call the all in, after commiting 20% or so of your stack allready, and +the fact that you probaly are ahead or a slight dog). you force your opponents to fold marginal hands that had you beat

Last edited by tightagressive; 08-07-2006 at 11:03 PM.
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