*sorry if this is old news, i spoke with 4 people last night, all of which completely disagreed with me, i figured i might benifit somone by posting*

in this example, we are going to assume that the game is 1/2 nl. we will say the game has gone all night, the fish have come and gone, the good players remain at the table, the game has at least $500 stacks, one new guy who also seems reasonable has about $175

we can still assume we are the best player at the table, but lets not assume anyone is horrible. everyone has probably at least read a basic holdem book and knows which starting hands to play.

now lets review sklanskys preflop strategy for a deep stacked game with reasonable players. it says, basically, that you lose some value playing JJ and QQ agressively preflop. well, it doesnt say that, but he advocates just calling raises in alot of spots with queens, and limping with jacks in most spots. and i agree, 100%, and i want to explain why, because i had this discussion with a few friends and they thought i was retarded, hopefully i can help out a few of you guys.

lets say, there is an EP raise from a reasonable player to $12. the game is pretty tight, but very beatable, as these players are no good postflop, and are easy to read. lets say we have QQ in MP and its folds to us. in sklanskys preflop strategy, he advocates just calling with QQ-99, even thought i cant think of a player i know who would not raise with JJ or QQ here.
raising with qq is wrong, for a few reasons
-there is no need to isolate. the game is pretty tight. its not worth putting in a big re raise to isolate when the chances of more people coming in the pot are less, but the chances of somone having aa or kk is the same as in a bad game.
-if we re raise, we will typically ONLY GET ACTION FROM HANDS THAT HAVE US BEAT, OR HANDS THAT WE WONT BE ABLE TO MAKE MONEY FROM POST FLOP(like AK. he will call with AK, and get away from a bad flop). so if we just call, we get to play against his AT, AQ, KQ, 99, TT, if he flops a set its easy to figure out because hes not a good postflop player. if he has AA or KK we still lose about the same ammount of money to him (we would be able to fold our overpair if we know its beat) however we get the chance to stack him with a set! this is the most important point
-we save money when somone behind us wakes up with a monster. maybe they minraise and we stack them! if we re raise the EP raiser, he would make it waaaay too much to play with just QQ

make sense? heres another example, straight from sklanskys pf strategy
"if you are 1st to enter the pot, usually raise QQ"
this is obvious to most people, but
-if you limp, everyone with an A or K or low pair will limp, and you are a retard for not raising.
-you can buy yourself position
-yada yada yada this one is a no brainer

sklansky also advises to fold QQ if you see raise and re raise from 2 reasonable players. imo this is a no brainer as well...







hopefully i helped somone who is losing money getting AI in a tough game against AA or KK with QQ.

Originally Posted by G_The_Jester

A.Surely this again is player specific and whether you truly believe that you have the best hand.

B.If you believe you have the best hand and don't re raise then you leave some chips off the table. Why give the guy an easy ride and a cheap flop to his AHighCard or lower PP. Any response to the re raise in this position is likely to be an all in or a call (both giving very different and valid information) you can probably assess your pre flop situation better from here.

C.If you don't re raise then you have gotta be reading your opponent on KK or AA in which case you must fold and not call.

When the flop comes and you've just called how do you identify a continuation bet from his AxHighCard.

D.Re raise and your gonna have position on any pre flop call which gives you a read post flop.

A. obviously this is player specific, if a donk opened for a raise its an instant re raise with QQ. if you actually read my post you realise we are in a very player specific and stack specific situation. with differnt players and stack sizes, our plays would be differnt. duh.

B. in some games, yes. but in the game im talking about NOBODY IS GOING TO CALL A RE RAISE WITH AX OR A SMALL PAIR, SO YOUR RE RAISE ONLY GETS CALLED BY HANDS THAT HAVE YOU BEAT. the idea is go to the flop and outplay them postflop, when their AT becomes top pair on the T 5 3 flop, and stack them.

C. IN THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION I HAVE DESIGNED, (decent players preflop, deep stack sizes) we would love to just call a raise with QQ. folding is HORRIBLE, because we will probably stack somone if we flop a set.

D. yes, raise and your read post flop is that you are probably beat, because if i make a raise with AJo and get re raised by a straight forward player, its an instant fold, because they will have AA KK or AK probably more than 90% of the time. thats why middle stakes no limit is so freaking easy, everyone is so tight preflop and so bad postflop you can run all of them over!

Originally Posted by the alex

This depends on the re-raise, how aggressive the game is, and how this person regularly reacts to your play. If you can't pick up a read, fold, but 90% of the time is a bit ridiculous and you're talking about a very vulnerable hand anyway. By your logic, you'd fold AK to a re-raise 90% of the time because you'll never know when you have the best hand when you hit.

It really depends on the game, but I play in games where people are constantly battling for the button in different ways and one of those ways are being aggressive, sometimes overly aggressive. But being in constant fear of Aces and Kings every time you get re-raised is situational. Of course, until you start to have confidence in picking up on people you should err on the side of caution.

im talking about a very specific kind of player. obviously your plays should be player specific.

Oddly enough I just got QQ twice in about 20 hands and decided to play it this way both times. 1st time I run into KK and the second time AA.

Originally Posted by gder03

full ring?

yes, 10 handed