The problem I have with the reraise PF is the size. I can't see villian folding much here to this raise getting 3:1 . . . which given our hand isn't that bad, as we'd like calls from worse hands. However, we don't get any really good info about villian's holding. But we do get the initiative, which is good.

But the thing I absolutely hate is that it builds a huge pot that is 1/2 our stack size when we're getting short (started with an M of 11). Building a big pot when short is not advantageous to small ballers, as it severly limits what we can do. Particularly when we have a hand like 99 that isn't going to like many flops we'll see.

If we had 80K in chips, I'd love the reraise. But with 42K, I'm feeling trapped by it.

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Jason75: Ok, you check and the button bets 400. Now what?
Beavis68: You play poker.
Jason75: Darn, I was really hoping for canasta. Maybe Gin.

BTW, YP makes a good point. Giving up on this hand and check/folding it down (hopefully making it to a showdown without a bet) is always an option.

Sometimes you're just beat, you know there's nothing you can do to win the pot, and you can either talk yourself into thinking you can win and spewing out the rest of your chips or you have to make a big laydown (knowing that some % of the time you're laying down the best hand).

Depends on if you think you can survive with an M of 8-9.

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Jason75: Ok, you check and the button bets 400. Now what?
Beavis68: You play poker.
Jason75: Darn, I was really hoping for canasta. Maybe Gin.

Okay, I understand your point about pushing with this hand. But why do we think we are beat here...or that our opponent won't fold to a 1/3 or 1/2 pot bet. It is all hinged on him having an A, T or bigger pair. But his play doesn't tell the story (unless he is gonna CR, but then I know I am beat). And if I'm gonna call on the river, I might as well place that bet right here to see if he fires back at me. I want to be the aggressor on this hand after my opponent has checked TWICE. I was the PF reraiser and Alex never said this opponent is STUPID. What he said is that he will CR with TP...well, if he CRs my bet, I got my answer.

I think you have to bet at this pot or you are simply giving it away. If I were the opponent and the PF raiser checked BOTH the flop and the turn, I am firing a nice bet on the river that will really put the question to him...no matter what I have.

By not betting the turn, you are really hoping for one of two scenarios: 1) First, the most desirable (and I believe the most unlikely) is that our opponent checks the river, OR 2) that our opponent makes a small bet that we can call with good odds. All I can say is, good luck. I never get so lucky after reraising PF, but then checking the flop and turn.

BTW, why did we reraise PF w/ 99 anyway? We know that nearly 80% of the time the flop is not gonna be something we are thrilled with. So don't we reraise PF so that we take control of the hand? What good is that control if we let it go? Of course, we lost much of that control by checking in last position on the flop...so maybe since we have already gone from a show of strength to a show of weakness, we should just continue in that fashion. But personally, I would have to bet the turn.

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CORYAN
I don't play a lot of hands....I just play a lot of them poorly.

Cor - good points. That play is a bit weak. It depends on 1) how likely that villain is ahead and 2) how aggressive would he bluff at the river?

1) What % of the time does he have Ax, Tx, 33, 66, JJ or QQ (expecting pf reraise with KK/AA)? What % of the time does he have 44, 55, 77, 88, KQ, KJ, QJ or something else we are beating? Hard to say from our perspective because we don't know what villains probable min- raising hands are - just that Ax is very, very possible. So if Alex feels he is behind 60%+ in this situation, probing is losing chips in the long run.

2) If we check the turn, how much will Villain bet on river? Again, we don't have the reads to know. If he would bet the pot with K high here, then that lends more weight to us betting the turn. But if he can't fire the big bullet, and we can showdown for 10k or less (leaving us enough chips for battle) then that's good.

Basically, a probe on the turn would be 8-12k. If villain would bluff more than this on the river, go ahead and probe the turn. If this is what the villain would lead on the river, let him do that.

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"There is a good chance I gave you a very bad description of something that doesn't work."

I agree Coryan, "what good is control if we let it go" - so bet the flop.

And I also agree that if you check the turn villain is betting the river regardless of his holding, which completely defeats the purpose of the preflop raise.

Obviously Alex plays a particular style, is very good at it, and is very comfortable with it. I also think this is an interesting hand, as it covers many issues during low M play.

So given the above, I'd really like to know:

1. Why the PF raise, and why this particular amount (e.g., what were you looking to accomplish here)?
2. Why the check on the flop given the action, particularly when you put him on a bad ace (how bad is a bad A? A3 and A6 have 2 pair so this is important) or bad pair (and what do you mean by "bad pair" - any PP lower than AA that's afraid of the A on the flop, pair lower than 99 that's not a set, etc?)
3. Given his check on the turn, what do you think about your read on villian now?
4. How far are you willing to push this hand (maybe you're ready to give up - which I think isn't entirely out of the question here given the board; maybe you're ready to fire your stack at him over 2 streets)?

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Jason75: Ok, you check and the button bets 400. Now what?
Beavis68: You play poker.
Jason75: Darn, I was really hoping for canasta. Maybe Gin.

how is that obvious?

jacks, anyone?

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Excellent questions Jason!
But this one struck me as most interesting. How can this guy be put on ANY HAND? We have seen nothing here except a PF raise? He then checks the flop and turn. I don't have a clue what this guy has! That is the problem with not betting the flop after the PF reraise. The reason we are willing to consider giving up this hand is that we are COMPLETELY LOST. We have no idea what our opponent holds and are scared of the possibilities (which are nearly limitless, at this point).

I don't have a problem with giving up an underpair when the ace hits on the board...but if that was the plan, I wouldn't have reraised it PF. I just think the play here has to be consistant. If we make a PF reraise, we have to be aggressive after the flop....ESPECIALLY when the only other player has checked TWO streets.

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CORYAN
I don't play a lot of hands....I just play a lot of them poorly.

I think we're beginning to get repetitive here. Jason was in a near mindset as me and his questions were leading in that direction. I think Jason knew what I did, but didn't wanna say it. Not that he agreed or disagreed, btu I think you knew what I did, so I'll take this street by street and it's what I was gonna type anyway. So, great questions, Jason:

PF: This guy's raise meant near nothing to me other than he had something playable to him. The raise was the minimum raise and that was his normal raise. My re-raise was not to take the pot and I'm not investing more than 10k of my 40k stack with nines before seeing some cards. The raise was for isolation purposes only and to pick up a read on the turn. I'll get to this. When he called, I figured bad Ace (AT-A2) or a pair lower than 9's. I think he's coming over the top with AA-77. That's why I'm not putting too many chips in the pot. I get the same information for 10k than I would've for 15k.

Flop: Well, there's the Ace. I insta-checked because I'd rather fold the turn to a bluff of 6k than bet 8k and fold. If he bets the turn, I fold second pair and have 16bb's. Any bet on the flop puts in "dumb-dumb" mode where I'm pushing on any strong hand PF and I hate being there. I'll get my information for free if he bets the turn. I'm comfortable with the size of my penis and don't mind insta-folding to a bet.

Turn: He checks. He has no Ace. He isn't slowplaying here. People prone to a lot of check-raising aren't tricky. They're cliche. Why do people check-raise too much? It's because they're afraid of taking a pot that (to them) is too small. They always want full value. They cannot handle catching top pair and taking a small pot. These people will check with the intention of raising. When they don't get what they want, they buckle up and start rushing with a bet that's a bit too high to get a call.

So, I've got him on a small pair. That's it. At best, KQ or KJ. I say at best because they're bigger threats than a lo pair. If he's hit a set, he'd bet this turn as well. My only fear is AT, but the lo pairs outweigh the AT, so there's my read. He's got 88, 77, 55, 33, or 22

Turn: (t20000) (2 players)
MP1 checks, dbl_gutted checks.

Now, how do I get money out of him? He's not calling anything. Look at that board. I'm only gonna get what he throws my way. So, I decided to let him take a stab on the river and I was calling anything on the river. If, for some reason, he checks, I'll bet 10k and call any raise.

River: (t20000) (2 players)
MP1 bets t8330, dbl_gutted calls t8330.

Final Pot: t36660

Results in white below:
MP1 has 7h 7d (high card, ace).
dbl_gutted has 9d 9c (one pair, nines).
Outcome: dbl_gutted wins t36660.

Because of my read, betting was just to take the pot, but why just take the pot? I'll take a dangerous gamble on the 19:1 shot he hits his set. I know its risky, but I got a lot of gamble in me to take that 19:1 chance.

Back to the flop:
I always bet a flop when I raise PF whether I raised with AA or 47. But I needed information. the stacks were too short for tester bets when I had a guy who would put his cards on his forehead for free.

A lot of the opinions were around exactly what I was thinking at the time. The execution was just different. All in all, I didn't care if I was bluffed off the hand on the turn because of checking the flop. With a weak M, but 16bbs is enough to enter the pot for one more good raise to take a pot or double up on the flop. That doesn't scare me at all. I said in my initial thread that I was 50/50 as to whether he had a bad Ace or a bad pair. That's not true. I was a good 65/35 that he had an Ace. I was able to correct myself and extract some chips out him and finish 14th. Gay second to last table.

And Beavis, on the semantics of the stage of the tourney- Don't even say that this is a late stage because of a calculation. How's this for some numbers? This hand was about 2 and a half hours into the tourney. I went out in 14th a bit before the break to mark 4 hours and approx. 20 minutes. The final table didn't start until the tourney was 5 hours old. So, take your Q's and M's and compare them with those numbers. There was twice as much poker to be played. That would make it... middle.

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