Cold calling to make sure uber donks stay in the pot

Phytopath · #1 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 06:39 PM

I was wondering about this when you get a fairly strong hand on the button or CO with an uber donk in the SB. Do you just flat call a decent players raise to keep the uber donk in or re-raise for equity.

Today iPoker 2/4 6max

I am on the button with

The biggest fish ever is in the SB, another big donk is in the CO but not insanely donkey (lets say average). UTG+1 is decent, but over-aggressive.

UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, CO donk calls, Hero??

Thoughts on this would be appreciated, thanks

tightagressive · #2 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 06:52 PM

just kidding about my post i thought this was NL

jte87 · #3 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 06:54 PM

You've already got one good donk in there so I say raise. The uberdonk is probably calling 3 bets with most of the same stuff he calls 2. Stick it to 'em.

tightagressive · #4 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 07:46 PM

nevermind

the alex · #5 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 08:07 PM

"The general idea is that you extract the most money from your opponents by putting them in a position to make big mistakes. Sometimes that means manipulating the pot size into one that is most likely to be a size where they make errors. Occasionally you make the pot bigger early to make them chase more times you flop a great hand. Other times you keep it smaller to keep the hand from being a "shootout" where you have to chase just like they will.

-David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth, Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players.

In other words, it depends and I'd go another point in the book where it discusses large unpaired cards, he talks about calling with loose players because you want to keep the pot small against bad players until you make your hand.

Makes sense. Minimize your investment because your winnings will be large when you hit because this is the nature of your opponent.

The thing about AK is that against a pair, you're a coin flip to after seeing 5 cards. Against two players, many times, one of your Aces or Kings are dead. Yes, it's unseen, but let's not be stupid here. Raising inflates the pot to a point where you'll use that size to justify chasing.

You've got Ace-Hi and a great drawing hand. Use the flop and BB rounds to value bet when your hand has a better value than Ace Hi.

Marm · #6 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 09:05 PM

Wow... a HPFAP quote.

Basically it all depends on where you are goign to make your most money. If they will see the turn for any price, but then usually fold if they miss, you gotta make them pay early. If they get hyper later in the hand thinking the bigger bets can get you to lay down, then you gotta wait, and get hyper right with them.

Pok 7's · #7 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the alex

In other words, it depends and I'd go another point in the book where it discusses large unpaired cards, he talks about calling with loose players because you want to keep the pot small against bad players until you make your hand.

Makes sense. Minimize your investment because your winnings will be large when you hit because this is the nature of your opponent.

So this kind of equates to raising something like AK out of the blinds against a few limpers for example. We had a discussion about this a while back, the overall thoughts seemed to be, anyone who's in isn't folding for 1 bet, so why commit more $ just yet. Also if you hit your hand it's well disguised post flop.

tightagressive · #8 (**permalink**) 06-13-2006, 08:44 AM

kidding

Aces-o-8s · #9 (**permalink**) 06-13-2006, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

imo, AK is a decent multi way hand as AA/KK is not. with AK here i cant see how cold calling is a bad play.

According most respected authors (including Sklanski) AK is NOT a multi-way hand whereas AA/KK do very well. Raising to thin the field is practically a basic principle with an A-K hand and especially in Limit, any chance you get to present a 2x or 3x coldcall to players following is golden!

however if these people suck you probably make more money by pairing your A or K and stacking somone with QQ, KQ, or whatever, than re raising and blowing the donks out of the pot.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a LIMIT Hold'em question - not NL

if its raised to me and there is one caller from a bad player sometimes ill just call with AK. i only do this if i know there wont be alotta people to the flop, if i think there might be i will re raise.

Here you seem to be contradicting yourself! If you believe A-K is a decent multi-way hand why would you re-raise if you thought there might be a lotta people to the flop if not to thin the field?

So much to disagree with - see replies in red above

Antneye · #10 (**permalink**) 06-13-2006, 10:02 AM

interesting discussion. Phytos' original example is interesting. I typically raise here, but I like the thought of just calling "on occasion".

I am not sure AK is a multi-way hand. Its got high pair high kicker strength, but is not very connected since it only makes 1 5 card straight. If its suited, it plays better multiway.

I guess I am saying in general play it fast and re-raise.