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Go Back PokerForums.org > Strategy Discussion > General Poker Strategy > Cold calling to make sure uber donks stay in the pot

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growlers
What do you guys think of the position issue? I think the key factor for me that makes this situation a clear threebet is that you are on the button.

I have found that with a threebet here on the button that at 90% of tables I get checked to on the flop. Assuming everyone called preflop, I think I take a free card here.

I have found by coldcalling, 90% of the time you are facing a bet on the flop from the preflop aggressor.

It seems like this arguement alone would push me towards threebetting.

If this question was originally posed as being out of the blinds I would be more likely to coldcall.
The positional advantage is what makes me think that the cold-call here is actually somewhat more marginal. Aces, made a couple of good comments in that regard in his post aswell. In this hand though, the table was generally quite cooperative, King Donk wont bet without middle pair or better, CO-donk can be a little trickier and will bet with draws, BB wont bet unless he has at least TPGK, so really only UTG+1 (the PFR) is only one I felt I could gain anything by 3-betting.

I know in most situations this isn't the case, but I had an excellent feel for this table, maybe the other decent players were just playing really straighforward because of how bad King Donk really was, but it was honestly retarded how easy hands were to read.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 02:33 PM
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phytopath
The positional advantage is what makes me think that the cold-call here is actually somewhat more marginal. Aces, made a couple of good comments in that regard in his post aswell. In this hand though, the table was generally quite cooperative, King Donk wont bet without middle pair or better, CO-donk can be a little trickier and will bet with draws, BB wont bet unless he has at least TPGK, so really only UTG+1 (the PFR) is only one I felt I could gain anything by 3-betting.

I know in most situations this isn't the case, but I had an excellent feel for this table, maybe the other decent players were just playing really straighforward because of how bad King Donk really was, but it was honestly retarded how easy hands were to read.
But for the record, I don't think anyone is criticizing you for coldcalling since this seemed to be some unique situation that you had an excellent read on. I have coldcalled on occasion, but I am just stating my opinion on what I would do the vast majority of the time, not so much dealing with this particular wierd table you are at.

I once folded QQ preflop in a live 4-8 game because elderly rock UTG raised and elderly rock UTG+1 reraised (and was correct - as UTG KK and UTG+1 AA at showdown) but I don't think it is is the right play 99.9999999% of the time in a limit game with position on the raisers.
(although I would have spiked a Q on the river, but that is being result oriented )
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growlers
But for the record, I don't think anyone is criticizing you for coldcalling since this seemed to be some unique situation that you had an excellent read on. I have coldcalled on occasion, but I am just stating my opinion on what I would do the vast majority of the time, not so much dealing with this particular wierd table you are at.
I don't feel criticized, I actually think that there has been some excellent discussion here.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phytopath
I don't feel criticized, I actually think that there has been some excellent discussion here.
I was hoping to get some feedback on my objective suggestion that AA/KK/QQ would be better suited for this strategy than AK! Does this lack of responce mean I'm spot-on or that no-one thought enough of it that it warranted any feedback?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s
I was hoping to get some feedback on my objective suggestion that AA/KK/QQ would be better suited for this strategy than AK! Does this lack of responce mean I'm spot-on or that no-one thought enough of it that it warranted any feedback?

Sorry Aces, I ignore people from the Alberta just on principle.

I actually feel with AA-QQ that I would be alot more apt to raise in order to get more value out of the hand, and don't mind shutting out the BB and donk king.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Phytopath
I actually feel with AA-QQ that I would be alot more apt to raise in order to get more value out of the hand, and don't mind shutting out the BB and donk king.
Now that's interesting b/c I was under the impression that your strategy was having these two kept in the pot for 'more value'! The reasons I thought AK was ill-suited and AA/KK/QQ better suited for this strategy was that the A-K was still an unmade hand and would remain that way 2/3 of the time post-flop as well as you were giving up significant positional advantage. Whereas, the large pairs were already made hands that retain their value regarless of the flop and would be well disguised with the coldcall pf.
Seems to me if this strategy has merit with AK (although not imo) it should have significantly more merit with large pocket pairs - no?

BTW - I read your referece to 'meta-game'. I'm not familiar with this term - what does it mean?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s
Now that's interesting b/c I was under the impression that your strategy was having these two kept in the pot for 'more value'! The reasons I thought AK was ill-suited and AA/KK/QQ better suited for this strategy was that the A-K was still an unmade hand and would remain that way 2/3 of the time post-flop as well as you were giving up significant positional advantage. Whereas, the large pairs were already made hands that retain their value regarless of the flop and would be well disguised with the coldcall pf.
Seems to me if this strategy has merit with AK (although not imo) it should have significantly more merit with large pocket pairs - no?

BTW - I read your referece to 'meta-game'. I'm not familiar with this term - what does it mean?
He means that making a move that has ramifications later on - like coldcalling with pocket AA against a UTG raise because next time you coldcall with say Ax suited that person may put you on a big hand again, etc.
However, online I think that this is really not much of a consideration - the opponents aren't observant enough and people are on and off tables so fast that metagame issues aren't really a concern, especially in a limit game.

Live it is more of a consideration.

I think that not reraising with big pocket pairs is generally a big mistake. Three betting with JJ and then an A flops, it becomes much easier to win the pot against QQ and KK than if you coldcall. So in pther words there are other considerations than just who has the best hand preflop that you can exploit by threebetting.

I will VERY occasionally not reraise with AA for deception purposes if the player I am playing is the "turtle" type that slows down when raised.

I did this tonight in a live 6-12 game and raised the turn and the guy called me down with JJ, if I had threebet preflop he would have folded to the flop bet.

EDIT: Fixed a quote.
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Last edited by the alex; 06-13-2006 at 09:05 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s
Now that's interesting b/c I was under the impression that your strategy was having these two kept in the pot for 'more value'! The reasons I thought AK was ill-suited and AA/KK/QQ better suited for this strategy was that the A-K was still an unmade hand and would remain that way 2/3 of the time post-flop as well as you were giving up significant positional advantage. Whereas, the large pairs were already made hands that retain their value regarless of the flop and would be well disguised with the coldcall pf.
Seems to me if this strategy has merit with AK (although not imo) it should have significantly more merit with large pocket pairs - no?

BTW - I read your referece to 'meta-game'. I'm not familiar with this term - what does it mean?
But do we really want to be playing QQ-AA against 4 other players? I don't know how many people I want to let into the pot "cheap" with QQ or KK. Especially anyone with a random A...Is my thinking off here?

I mean I understand they're made hands and big ones.. but they're not necessarily multiway hands.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2006, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s
Now that's interesting b/c I was under the impression that your strategy was having these two kept in the pot for 'more value'! The reasons I thought AK was ill-suited and AA/KK/QQ better suited for this strategy was that the A-K was still an unmade hand and would remain that way 2/3 of the time post-flop as well as you were giving up significant positional advantage. Whereas, the large pairs were already made hands that retain their value regarless of the flop and would be well disguised with the coldcall pf.
Seems to me if this strategy has merit with AK (although not imo) it should have significantly more merit with large pocket pairs - no?

BTW - I read your referece to 'meta-game'. I'm not familiar with this term - what does it mean?
You make a pretty good point, I just feel that in a situation with a made hand when there is additional value which can be extracted from the raise, call and potential capping by the initial PFR. In that spot if I had AA and 3-bet, I'd probably give up some potential gain from king donk to increase my chance of winning by having it only against 2-opponents.

I dunno maybe my logic is flawed, or maybe I am just over-thinking a potentially trivial situation.

Again each situation is different, I rarely cold-call...I probably cold-call the least out of any of regular players on PFO. But at this table in this position I found I was doing it alot, just because of the dynamics.

As Growlers said Meta-gaming is making different plays than normal or optimal to confuse your opponents. Not much of a consideration online, if more than 2-3 players appear to be observant I switch tables
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