Playing against "callers"

Pok 7's · #1 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 08:32 AM

Something I've been running into lately in 6 max. Having no idea where you stand in a hand. Position can be any place.... put us first to act or last dosen't matter. Either we're betting and people are calling, or table will check to us we'll bet, and then all callers! Whats the best way to play against this?

I feel like I'm just playing blind, I have no idea if middle pair is good even TPGK in a hand because I'll bet it and nobody budges, just call, call, call, unless they have a big hand. If I don't bet it, it's usually 90% that SOMEONE will whether they have something or not... especially if they're last to act. But again I bet and just get callers what the hell should I be doing next? In that scenario if I check the turn or river, it's 95% certain again someone is betting.

I don't want to go into super passive mode and just call everything down like the majority of the table. Just seems like lately (even when I was at full ring) I was winning small post and losing the big ones. I don't know if there's some kind of leak I should be looking out for.

Marm · #2 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 10:53 AM

Bet for value.

You know you are getting called, And you know abouts the ranges of hands each player will play, so you can guestimmate a range of their possible holdings. IF the EV says so, you can bet on the assumption you will see a profit over the long term.

With these types of players, it takes a while of banging your head on a wall until you get a handle on them. Then it's cake.

Pok 7's · #3 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:01 AM

But I can't fear every overcard, we're talking about just about ANY range of hands here. Literally, Ax-Tx and even less sometimes going to the river fairly often. I had a 6To off beat me last night, against AA, hit a 6 on the flop and a T on the turn or river, how the hell do you put someone on a T6o????

Marm · #4 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:06 AM

You don't. And you need to bet like it too. The 94% of the hands that the Ten doesn't hit, you get paid. Just know their tendencies, and bet to make them pay to see the showdown. But never bet to bluff, just to get value from the hand you have. There is no thinking on the second level here, just the first.

WotaWaster · #5 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:20 AM

Play NL and raise to 8bb, anybody with T6o in that pot won't last lin the game long.

Phytopath · #6 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:31 AM

Poks these are the games that you want to play in, seriously you will get sucked out on alot but you can recover quickly because the opponents will continue to play passively and let you win alot of pots. When the games get tighter and more aggressive the beats are less frequent but they are much harder to overcome.

Against these players just bet for value, there is little point in betting your unimproved AK against 5 players in a pre-flop raised pot.

Fold your overcards against big fields too, since you will more often than not be reverse dominanted.

When you have nice draws, jam the pot for value and it will increase the likelyhood of getting a free card.

Play more drawing hands but do it cheaply if you can't limit the field. Not much point really raising your 99 on the button against 3 limpers.

Identify the tighter players and know that you can do more standard plays against them.

You have read SSHE, apply what you have learned it doesn't matter if it is 6-max or not.

Realize that coldcalling doesn't mean they have a good or even decent hand.

Oh and just stay calm, you can't win every pot even though you may play the best starting hands.

Aces-o-8s · #7 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:42 AM

Limit Hold'em does have it's frustrations doesn't it?

Sounds like you're playing at a pretty passive table where it's hard to engineer a 2x coldcall bet which is one of the few ways to protect a hand in Limit. You need an aggressive player to play off of so that if he's on your left you can bet and hope he re-riases making it 2x going into the sheep. If he's on your right, try ck-raising so you are now making it 2x to coldcall going into the sheep! If your table doesn't have at least one other aggressive maybe it's time to look for another table!

Poker is such a zoo isn't it? Fish, donkeys, sheep, mouse, jackals, assholes! Hmmmm one of those doesn't look quite right

Like Marm said, continue to bet for value and be happy the call stations are tagging along making it a payday for you - suck outs will happen but that's part of the overall equation.

Pok 7's · #8 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phytopath

Poks these are the games that you want to play in, seriously you will get sucked out on alot but you can recover quickly because the opponents will continue to play passively and let you win alot of pots. .

Problem is, I have no idea when I'm ahead. I read about how top pair or 2nd pair in a SH game can vary between a big hand to a monster in most situations. Or a decent PP say TT-QQ, and an over card hits with 1 or 2 other players in....Is my hand still good because they're afraid to raise with a lousy kicker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phytopath

Play more drawing hands but do it cheaply if you can't limit the field. Not much point really raising your 99 on the button against 3 limpers.

That's another problem raising to thin the field is borderline useless...so should I not be raising ("shorthanded raising hands" ..i.e. KJs, ATs etc.) when there's limpers? (seeing as how technically speaking I'll miss most of my hands) Which basically means a very passive PF play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phytopath

Oh and just stay calm, you can't win every pot even though you may play the best starting hands.

My Amazon order with "Zen" in it should be here this week

Pok 7's · #9 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s

Sounds like you're playing at a pretty passive table where it's hard to engineer a 2x coldcall bet which is one of the few ways to protect a hand in Limit. You need an aggressive player to play off of so that if he's on your left you can bet and hope he re-riases making it 2x going into the sheep. If he's on your right, try ck-raising so you are now making it 2x to coldcall going into the sheep! If your table doesn't have at least one other aggressive maybe it's time to look for another table!

I think in order to accomplish that I'd need to move up to a higher level. I don't want this to sound wrong, but I'm usually the most aggressive player at the table.

Problem is, it makes it even harder to know when I'm beat. A lot of times it'll shut the other guy down and, I'll think I'm ahead, it just keeps getting checked to me and I'll just keep betting, even though I may be behind.

Marm · #10 (**permalink**) 06-12-2006, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pok 7's

Problem is, I have no idea when I'm ahead. I read about how top pair or 2nd pair in a SH game can vary between a big hand to a monster in most situations. Or a decent PP say TT-QQ, and an over card hits with 1 or 2 other players in....Is my hand still good because they're afraid to raise with a lousy kicker.

You don't need to know. Just bet and pray. Smartly of course.

Quote:

That's another problem raising to thin the field is borderline useless...so should I not be raising ("shorthanded raising hands" ..i.e. KJs, ATs etc.) when there's limpers? (seeing as how technically speaking I'll miss most of my hands) Which basically means a very passive PF play.

You're not raising to thin field now, your raising based on the equity of your hand.

Quote:

My Amazon order with "Zen" in it should be here this week

Good! One of the best influences on my game ever.

Another thing you could try to help with this, is to go play 4-5 tables of .05/.10 Limit at stars. We know you know eveything we just told you, but that game will drill it into your skull. There is ONLY value betting there.