I don't normally call a raise with a pocket pair of 8s or less, unless it's a minimum raise. Just lately I've been playing around with the idea of calling raises (as long as they aren't huge) on the premise that you will get paid if you hit trips.

Can someone explain to me how you would go about figuring out implied odds and therefore what sort of bets you can call with small pocket pairs.

__________________
Bad Beat of the week 27/08/2006:

:kh :jd

Flop - :jc :3s :6d I raise 2/3 pot, Villian calls.

Turn :kd - I raise to put villian all in, he calls

he flips over :4d :4s :eek:

River :4c :rant: :mad: :rant: :eek:

The chance of flopping a set is about 8-1.

This means if you put for example $1 in preflop, you need to take down on average a pot bigger than $8 when you hit your set to make this play worthwhile. Given that there are times when you will hit your set and not get paid, and times when you will hit your set and still lose to straight/flush/higher set, I tend to look for current and implied odds of at least 12-1.

Lets say everyone in the game has a 100bb stack.

A guy in EP raises to 4bb and gets a call and you are on the button. If you call you will be putting in 4bb into a pot which is now 9.5bb (2 calls + SB + BB), giving you immediate odds of just around 2.4 - 1.

However if you believe the raiser has AA/KK and will not let it go post flop you have implied odds for his whole remaining 96bb stack, giving you implied odds of over 25 - 1.

Basically in order to play a pocket pair you need to consider the size of the raise in relation to both your own and the other players in the pots stack sizes. Other may look for greater odds but I think as long as you both have at least 12x the raise in your stack a call is OK.

The implied odds required will drop as the number of players increases.

E.g Heads up you probably want stacks at least 20x the raise
5 way pot - you almost have current odds anyway and increased chance of getting paid off so as long as players have over 8x the raise you are OK to call.

pot odds and implied odds do not related in any way to what your hand is.

pot odds are how big the pot is, compared to how much it is for you to call.

implied odds is the size of the pot + the money you can potentially win from your opponent compared to how much it is call.

I realise it's not directly related to your hand, was just interested in how people decide what size of a raise to call with a pocket pair because normally you aren't going to be getting the odds (8-1 according to WotaWaster) to hit your trips.

So people must be factering in implied odds, is it just the total of everyone who calls stacks or do you go on some sort of percentage of their stacks?

I suppose you could say this is a how much do you call with pocket pairs question as much as anything else.

__________________
Bad Beat of the week 27/08/2006:

:kh :jd

Flop - :jc :3s :6d I raise 2/3 pot, Villian calls.

Turn :kd - I raise to put villian all in, he calls

he flips over :4d :4s :eek:

River :4c :rant: :mad: :rant: :eek:

I go on the entire stack of the raiser. If he has AA/KK I am going to take it all 90% of the time I hit trips (unless I know hes capable of laying down a big pair, in which case I wouldn't call obviously).

the odds to flop a set are 7.5:1

however i frequently call raises with middle pp's as long as

-the villian and i are deep stacked. say its 1/2 nl, if my opponent raises 5x the bb with $600 behind and I cover, calling this raise with a low or mid pp is probably profitable unless your opponent is a skilled post flop player.
on the contrary, if i have $600 and the villian has $50, i will not play a small pair for set value(heads up at least) because the most i could win would be $50, the implied odds are mathamatically not there, even if the villian is going to pay me 100% of the time.

-in most mid/low stakes nl games, villian will not be a skilled post flop player. they will probably never be able to fold aces(you should be able to fold aces post flop), and maybe kings or queens if an ace is on board. they wont fold top pair or top 2. basically, even if its heads up ill go out of my way to stack somebody that cant get away from a pair. its too easy, and its very cheap. $10X7.5 to win $600? where do i sign up?

-the more callers, the better. ill play pairs heads up (and more so with position, as i might not have to hit trips to win the pot) but i would prefer a small pair in a multi way pot. it will be hard for my opponent to put me on a big ace on a board of
A 5 9
because i didnt raise preflop. in a multiway pot i can usually pot bet a set of 555 or 999 because in a loose low stakes game im bound to get action, and slow playing is typically expensive(and ovverrated).
it doesnt need to be deep stacked to play a small pair in a multi way pot. if everyone has $100 and you are getting 5:1 preflop, its not deep stacked but there are multiple players to pay you, not just one.

however in a tight game, with poor pot odds and a player who might not go wild post flop, ill be less inclined to play for a set. i might be more inclined to raise preflop and take the pot, or perhaps outplay them after the flop. but thats a whole nother ball game.

also, in deep stacked nl this is why playing the flop is hard and you should be inclined to bet more than you normally would with AA-QQ. you have to be able to determine when your hand isnt so great, practice good pot control, and protect your hand preflop. with 6 limpers raising $10 in a 1/2 nl game will just not do. especaily live, where people are ultra loose (or, on party) consider raising to $20-$30, this seems like alot but you do not want small pairs to profitably call you, i made this mistake yesterday. i raise to $12 with many limpers with KK, lo and behold i was called by all of the limpers, and my kk suffered to a set of 777. if i had made a bigger raise, 77 would have not called preflop (and if they had it might not have been profitable, i had $120, if i had raised to $20 im not sure 77 gets paid enough)

edit: however, make sure not to vary your raises by the strength of your hands, just vary them by the ammount of limpers and stack sizes. you dont want to be easy to read

never call off morethan 10% of your stack, or your opponents stack, whichever is smallest.

somewhere between 9:1 and 14:1 is plenty good.

What you're looking for here is Total Odds.

Total Odds = direct odds (pot odds) + implied odds (how much of your opponent's chips you win if you hit and bet)

You're looking for Total odds to be at least 10:1. (for a beginning player, I'd say try 12:1).

The reason you need 10:1 rather than 7.5:1 is that even when you hit your set, you're 90% to win (not 100%). And you should try and account for the rare times you have someone flop set over set (you 222, them KKK) . . . .

Just add the pot to your opponent's remaining stack size and divide by the bet size. If you have fewer chips than your opponent, then you add your stack to the pot and divide by the bet size. If that # is at least 10 times the stack size, call.

If there are multiple opponents with different stack sizes, I'd take an "average" stack size and add that to the pot. So if I have 1000 chips, and am against 2 opponents, one with 500 chips and one with 800 chips, I'd use the average of 650 and add that to the pot, then divide the total by the bet I have to call.

Here's an important point: Position and the ability to cap the action are important considerations. Your implied odds are always higher if you have position on the flop, where you can raise a bet from an EP position player. Also, if you cannot cap the action PF, you need to consider the players to act behind you, and what (if any) actions they've taken so far in the hand.

Ex:

Blinds 25/50

UTG 4000
MP 3500
Button (Hero) 3000
SB 1875
BB 2700

Dealt to Hero: 22

This situation:
UTG raises to 150, 2 folds, MP calls 150, 3 folds, Hero calls . . .

is very different from this situation:
UTG raises to 100, 2 folds, MP reraises to 200, 3 folds, Hero folds . . .

because we can't cap the action of the players who are already in the hand. In the first example, we can ignore the blinds, because they will likely just call or pass. In the rare instance we're reraised by the blinds we'll be able to cap the action (though in this example we're not getting our odds to play for a set if we do . . .). In example 2, UTG will be able to act again after the blinds because there was a reraise by MP . . . so I'd fold here unless I had a good read that UTG would likely just flat call with anything other than AA or KK.

__________________
Jason75: Ok, you check and the button bets 400. Now what?
Beavis68: You play poker.
Jason75: Darn, I was really hoping for canasta. Maybe Gin.