I have always believed that unless you are on a draw and receiving correct odds, or slowplaying a monster you should never really call in NL Hold 'Em cash games. E.g - If you have 2nd pair and think it's good, you should raise there and then.

Recently I noticed a couple of players who I previously thought were fish starting to make some profit. I thought this was just lucky variance but it has now been going on for over 2 months. Almost daily I see these 2 guys sitting with profit of up to 4x the max buy in (I don't see them rebuy that frequntly either), and so I have to admit they are playing better than me, and have asked myself what I can learn from them.

This is a prime example of how they have taken money from me.

I raise preflop with AK of hearts, they call.

Flop comes down 3 8 9 (2 hearts)
I bet 2/3 pot they call

Turn is maybe 4 of spades
I bet 2/3 pot they call

River is 2 of clubs
I think maybe the only way I can now win is with a bluff so bet pot
They call with pocket 10's.

I think this is awful play on their part (I'm not interested in comments on my play of the hand at this point, I accept I should check fold river, and if I do check river, they would check behind). They never knew I didn't have JJ-AA, they allowed me free draws to 2 overcards and the flush, but they have taken my money. I would have either raised or folded on flop if I was them.

I have now used this type of play a few times with success.

E.g Today.

I was playing 5 handed, CO limped and I raised to 5bb on button with .
CO and BB called.

Flop came down (Pot $27.5)

BB bet $10, CO folded, and I CALLED (gay bet, he doesn't have to have me beat)

Turn was (Pot $47.5)

BB bet $25
I CALLED (less likely he has king and I do now have nut flush draw)

River (pot $97.5)

BB bet $30
I CALLED (felt commited to call now with these odds, although to be honest I could easily fold in this situation before with essentially 2nd pair on a 3 suited board - How many winners I must have thrown away with good odds to call)

He had pocket 2s and I won the hand. Did I play it well? I don't think so, but would be interested in others thoughts.

I have learned to slow down after turn calls. This is kind of the warning street for me to step back, examine the board, and see what is happening.

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Lots of good rakeback options at http://www.raketherake.com/?refer=RTR25126

KRE8R probably has about seventy college funds in his NL5 roll.

The only difference is position. Either hand could've been won or lost because of the calling.

The 1st hand theres a flush draw and your drawing to over cards, an A, K, or heart and you take the pot.

The 2nd hand a 2 comes and you lose it. They could easily have more outs with a different hand against you in that position. They could have had the straight draw, K, pocket 3s or 9s, the flush draw and you would just be giving chips away with any of those hands beating you by the river.

If that's how the players you say are winning money play all the time, then I'll say the variance will catch up with them eventually. I think if they make a profit they don't play like this against everyone.

Dunno if you seen this - http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/proLessons.php?lesson=42
Its artilce by Gavin Smith called "In defense of the call". He points out a couple times where calling is a good option

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BB is t100
Preflop: Hero is UTG with :3d :5d,
Hero raises to t500

if you are going to 3 barrel bluff then you absolutely must know the player.

maybe these players know your tendancies, maybe he called you b/c he put you on close to what you had? do they always call down other players?

in the AJ hand i think you played it fine. somebody with a K is going to bet more, the betting was weak and you were getting good odds to call down and pick them off. you are either very far ahead or very far behind, no card is really going to scare you, in fact the turn helped you. obviously his line did not fall in place with a king, nice call, no need to raise IMO in this hand.

i just call all the time. i also like the freeze play against players who are likley to continuation bet. its a good play on safe boards.

heres another play i like. say i limp in with like 4 limpers on the button with

the flop comes

checks to me most of the time ill come out betting here (there were 4 limpers) so i bet out the size of the pot. hopefully somebody comes over the top, right? but if so, im really likley to think for a bit and then just call the bet. this will very, very, very much conceal the strength of my hand. not only that, i look like im going to fold on the turn, im going to induce alot of bluffs. on the turn, say the turn comes very safe, like the


and now my opponent who check raised me bets about the pot. again, no river card is really going to hurt me that much, because if he allready as a set all the monies going in anyway, so when the board pairs it wont matter how i played the hand. so on the turn ill think a little, then just smooth call again. my play looks like i have a weak hand and want a cheap showdown.

there isnt really any river card that will make me fold so i wont continue with the scenario, but here are all the good things i have done so far in this hand
-i have so far represented no strength and effectively concealed the strength of my hand
-i have bled my opponesnts stack into the pot, they are now completely committed to 2 pair or whatever
-i give them one last chance to bluff at the pot
-(in a ring game) i set myself up for a freeze play on later streets.

then later, say i just call another raise. anybody who is observant isnt going to interpret my call as weakness, b/c earlier i just called down with the nuts. so if i just call a bet on the flop, i can effectively "freeze" a player out of position, who will, unless the hold the near nuts, check fold the turn to my ludicrious play.

then later in the game, i can throw in raises with big hands that look like bluffs. "well he usually just calls with the nuts, ill come over the top"

some of the time, just calling is the best play. i dont like over agressive poker, i hate the "if its good enough to call, its good enough to raise mentality"
i burn these over agressive players with passive play all the time, if that makes any sense