Hey, stick up for me, I am the one getting butchered here!!! LOL

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Actually guys I think there;s some good info in here, and it's definately helped as far as some of the different possibilites in this hand. Honestly I think there's merit in a lot of the posts as far as the play.

:rockpoker

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Well I certainly think there are different trains of thought on this and similar hands. I am a little suprised that there is so much passive advice being spread in this thread.

I agree that the pot is 4.75BB which is an okay size, but why would you want to possibly not win 6.75BB or even 8.75 BB if both players call you to a showdown?

If it was a that fell on the river would you be saying the same thing? because the T isn't all that much different in this situation IMO.

Alex, I know that skill doesn't increase linearily but you can't honestly tell me there is no difference from the average player at .5/1 6max and 3/6 or 5/10 6 max?

Thanks for sticking up for me Beav

Growlers I don't think you are taking that much of a beating, and I agree with you pretty much all the way.

Stop looking at the cards, look at the action! In 6 max people call with middle pair and bet and raise top pair no matter what the kicker or what the action was. A good player wouldn't play Qx and a bad player thinks top pair is gold. There is only the ultra passive calling station who will call down with a Queen here, and what are the chances both of these guys are that type of player! I would place the percentage of hands like this

Cutoff or BB

A Queen 5%
A Ten 40%
A three 5%
A decent draw 40%
Some cheese 5%
A monster,33,QT 5%

To me it's about 50/50 that you can beat either player and you won't get a cheap showdown on the river if they complete their draw since you don't have position. The bet on the turn just sweetens the pot. Your betting into a player that we have no info on or his hand after a scare card, it reopens the action to a player who may be slowplaying. This play doesn't help you strategically it hurts you. You lose so much more the times you are beat.

What if the BB now has you beat and on the turn it goes: Check, you bet, call, raise, you call, call. Now the river is bet, you call, call.

A hand that would have cost you 1BB cost you 3. When your ahead you may squeak out a little extra from betting, but when you are behind you lose so much more.

Ditto if they are drawing, you win 1BB on the turn when they miss and lose 3 when they hit since they will raise the river. Where I guarantee checking it twice one of those missed draws bluffs at the pot on the river, winning you your 1BB that you missed on the turn.

I said earlier in the thread I don't think raising is bad, I just think checking is better

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Actually, your check probably cost you 4.75bbs.

chance of having a T is way less than 40%.

I don't know how much you play .5/1, but even the "good" player make really weak flop calls in raised pots.

Steve, Alex,

I do think that the concept you are discussing is an important one.

Basically. Do you earn more protecting your hand and "charging" the draw, or saving bets when you are behind with you will be losing about 95% or more of your bet if you are behind). If you are ahead you "gain" between 80% and 90% of a bet called by your opponent on the turn - of course you can also be protecting a pot you have a huge stake in vs a guy with lower pockets that felt like "peeling".

I think Phyto, Growlers, and I put our opponents on a broader range of hands than you guys do, but it is a great concept, and an important one.

How the hell is it costing you this???? thats what folding costs you! you would have to be outdrawn everytime and have them fold to the turn bet every time for this to be accurate

I think the main point is, checking you induce bluffs while avoiding check-raises and raises. You will make close to the same from inducing bluffs as you will from betting, and save a lot more when you are beat.

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Why?

If you are beat on the turn this costs you 3BB

If you are beat on the river it costs you 2BB

If opponent misses there draw you win 1BB

If opponent is awful and calls with some 77 type hand you win 2BB

If you check the turn

If you are already beat you lose 2BB

If they make their draw you lose 1BB on the river this is the key difference when you couple it with these 2

If opponent is awful and has 77 he will surely bet at least once so you win 1BB

You really are not costing yourself much by checking since it will often induce a bluff

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This thread is making me laugh harder than my favorite poker player, Lance Funston. I've said all I have to say on this I could repeat myself, but I have finals this week and just finished a 30 page paper, so the chronic carpal-tunnel in kickin' in.

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