Value? There are 4.75 bets in the pot. Nothing wrong with an average pot with one pair.

[sarcasm]Oh, but they're Aces. They're pocket Aces, you gotta take a 20BB pot or you played it weak.[/sarcasm]

It's an overpair, he either takes an average pot or loses an average pot. That happens with one pair and a Queen kicker. I don't mean to sound like I'm analyzing a video poker hand, but it is what it is at this point.

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I think you guys are being results oriented (no, he didn't post the results, but from the question it is obvious he was outdrawn)

It seems like if someone posts the limit as below 5/10 people immediately assume their opponent has crap. OK, so this time he did.

I'll eloborate later

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Good I'm looking foward to it, this is actually something I find to be the most annoying at the lower limits.

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Value? No. Information? Yes.

Betting the turn in this case will do one of three things (IMO)

(1) Start a raising war in which you know you are beat and can easily fold for only the 1 bet.

(2) Get callers, in which you know to proceed very cautiously (unless you hit one of the other two aces) on the river (i.e. check/call 1 bet).

(3) No one else has shit and you take the pot right there.


I think this strategy will help minimize losses on a dangerous board. Remember all you have is 1 pair (albeit the best). This is not a place to get ueber aggressive, IMHO.

That's my 2 cents.

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Bean181818: some guy came up just grabbed my hand and starting massaging it, since it wasn't you, i told him to fuck off
xcrunman02: yeah only I can do that, i don't need some gook trying to get with my life partner
Bean181818: i've been faithful
xcrunman02: me too
Bean181818: peck tried to get all this but i told him this was all taken, all of it!

This is one of those situations where not adjusting a tight/aggressive strategy is gonna cause problems. There are times to be passive and this is one of them.

My range of hands may be small, but that is because we have no info on our opponents. When this is the case I proceed as if they are somewhat selective and competent. I also will proceed more passively in these cases. The worst thing to do is get into a raising war weith someone because you think "they must suck, they are at a low limit table". WELL, SO ARE YOU! Do you suck?

I am not going to assume someone sucks because of the stakes they are playing. Between this and the way he posed his question it was quite obvious he was outdrawn because of his check, doesn't mean it is the wrong thing to do. Would the guy have folded? Maybe. But, you are neglecting the fact that there were 2 players!!! the chances 1 of them had middle pair increases. If there was only 1 player, yeah go ahead and bet, but not with 2. Middle pair is a highly likely holding in this spot

Checking also induces bluffs. Looking at it long-term you will make more money (or lose less depending on the scenario) by inducing bluffs in this spot and at the same time avoiding being raised, than you will from people calling with a draw or some unlikely holding like A3.

If you bet the turn;

If they call with a draw and miss you make 1 BB since they fold the river

If they have a hand you lose 3BB, 2 on the turn and 1 on the river

If they make their draw you lose 2-3BB, depending if you bet the river or check-call

If they have a weaker hand (like A3 or 66) you win 2BB if they call, 0 if they fold

If you check the turn;

and they have a draw they either bluff with it or check it, and they may bluff the river as well. So you lose less when they hit, and win roughly the same or more when they miss unless they check it down twice (most people would stab at the pot on the river)

If they have a hand you lose 2BB from 2 calls

If they have a weaker hand you win 1-2BB because they will bet it at least once

You basically win the same when you're hand is best and lose less when it is not

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Steve-O, I don't think that players that play low limit just in general. But at the lowest 6 max limit games guess what they really do on average, especially when you don't have many hands on the players and have no reads. With no reads I go with the base that they really, really are awful there may be some good players at this level but they are typically the exception and not the norm.

As you move up I have noticed that there are alot more decent/good players, 1/2 has way more than .5/1 and 3/6 has way more than 1/2 or 2/4. Haven't played any higher at 6 max so I can't comment.

As for this hand Poks didn't have 1 pair he had 2 pair, which in fact makes this hand alot stronger.

On the turn the draws are still there so the players aren't gonna fold so I feel that you are much better off making them pay for their draw rather than allowing a free card to beat you.

Also if the players are thinking players by betting the turn you can force them to fold their weaker hands, things like JJ, AK, 99.

Also remember you are against 2-players here so betting the turn my force one or both of them out.

If im in the same situation, I'm check/calling the turn & river for one bet only (each),

Trust me steveo, I play a lot of 6max limit, I'm doing the same that you recommend, HOWEVER, I'm just saying that betting for info is not going to cost you more than 2 bb anyways as long as you do it very carefully.

I think you kinda misread what I was saying though. If I bet the turn, I'm only betting the river if one of my two remaining aces hit, other wise im check/calling or folding depending on river action. If I bet the turn and get raised I figure I'm beat and fold only losing 1 bet. Under no circumstance do I lose more than 2 BB.

Bet turn, get raised, fold = lose 1 bb
Bet turn, callers, check/call river = lose 2 bb (small % win)
Bet turn, calllers, river checked down = lose 1 bb (some % win)
Bet turn, callers, check, bet&raised, fold = lose 1 bb
Bet turn, folds = win

Did I leave anything out? Is your point though to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible? In that case check/calling one bet on each the river and turn would be the correct play.

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Bean181818: some guy came up just grabbed my hand and starting massaging it, since it wasn't you, i told him to fuck off
xcrunman02: yeah only I can do that, i don't need some gook trying to get with my life partner
Bean181818: i've been faithful
xcrunman02: me too
Bean181818: peck tried to get all this but i told him this was all taken, all of it!

BPEEEH!!!! Wrong.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times, there's no aptitude test that you have to pass to sit at the 10/20, 15/30, 20/40, or 30/60 tables I play. All you need are 10BB's in your account. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less. The majority of players are bad until you get to the high-limits.

FACT: Most people play poker devoid of the "bankroll concept." If they do have this concept in mind, they can't manage and frequently go to the table where they have 2 or 3 min. buy in's in their whole roll.

I believe there's more aggression in mid-limits than lo and micro because people are deperately trying to prove to themselves that they're so good that "bankroll management" rules don't apply to them.

That said, when you think players will play anything, you don't keep betting and betting at an average pot with one pair and a paired board. Bad players don't increase your variance. Overaggression on the turn and river against bad players increase your variance.

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I'm wondering if this was something that caused me to be running bad lately (along with some miracle cards and completed ISSD's), I noticed in PT the turn is where I'm most aggressive (3+ rating in full ring). Not that my play here reflects it, but.

I tend to use more raising than calling when I play, I actually hate calling down hands. It wasn't untill recently that I started adapting it more...just seems so.....passive! Perhaps I'm overusing the "if it's good enough to call it's good enough to raise" philosophy?

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I think check/calling this turn is way too passive.

There is now a two flush to go along wth the two straight on the board, the only card you care about right now is one of two remaining tens. So you are going to allow someone to draw to one of the clubs or straight cards they need with infinite odds by not betting because you are scared of getting raised by someone with one of two cards in the deck?

If you want to check/call that river then by all means that is reasonable - that is a crappy river and I would not bet it out. But checking the turn I think is just plain wrong. It is already a sizable pot - you need to maximize your chances of winning it and checking the turn aint the way to do that.

I think checking this turn is fearing the monsters in the closet. You just can't do that in a limit game until you have more information than we have here.

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