Preflop: No, I would not cap.

Flop: Actually I think raising and calling both have merits. I would be more comfortable raising the flop with AK because you have more outs if you are behind some of his hand range than when you have AJ. You would hate to get a turn A and then find out he has AQ.
SB may be a good player - he may have three bet with a pretty wide range to deny BB odds, but that is probably still a range of good hands (i.e. he is not three betting A2 or something).
55-AA
A9-AK
KQ

Unimproved, it is very unlikely you are good. One advantage of calling is that if he has a small pair or KQ or something he may check the turn. You really don't have mathmatical odds to call since some of your cards are tainted by his hand range, but since you have postion I don't think it is that bad.

I am rambling here, but without a read it is hard to figure out what to do. If you just call you know you get to the turn for one SB. If you raise he may three bet you with any two cards which would really suck.

I think that you played it fine - I am usually in a raise or fold camp with a hand like this since you have position but this is really a borderline situation.


I am being more wishy-washy than usual so I'll shut up and let someone take a stand.

I don't mind the preflop play. I can't see getting SB 3-betting with a hand you beat. I'd probably fold on the flop because, unless I have a read on SB I'm going to guess he's a decent player. Most crap players will only call a PF raise from the SB unless they have a monster.

A Decent player will raise in that spot for a multitude of reasons with a higher range of hands, The raise could be a bluff, but I'm guessing because of his position it's either a monster hand (AA or KK or AK) unless you know he's a good player then it could be anything from >55 to AK or AQ...either way, I think you're beat on the flop unless it hits you.

I probably would have let the hand go on the flop instead of calling. 2 bad situations are you hit your J to find out he's on a higher PP or you hit the A to find out you're out kicked. If you knew he was a good player and capabable of making isolation moves with mid PP then it might be worth a call to see if you hit to out pair him, but since he could be on the mid PP this flop may have hit him hard...

Even with a good read, I think this hand would have to be let go. You got away cheap because your hand didn't hit, it could have been worse...

Unless he was a tricky player (which is pretty rare at .25/.50) I think it's a pretty easy fold. Most people here 3 betting especially form the SB (unless he's hyper aggressive) is usually a big pair QQ+ or AK. If he's confident enough to 3 bet the raiser and lead into him I'd guess a big pair, even if it's AK you're still not in great shape. I played almost all my .25/.50 games at Stars and 3 betting or capping PF wasn't all that common. Chances are most of it you'll see in the hands you're involved in (it was for me at least usually being the 3 bettor or capper). But depending on where you play it might be different, a raise may have slowed him down if you wanted to see how much he liked his hand, but then you're potentially faced with a reraise again just to satisfy your curiosity...which I've done a few times myself also ....depends on how curious you are.

Originally Posted by Antneye

Antneye is MP1 with

So what kind of hands raise MP1 from the SB? According to Sklanski, you need a better hand to call a raise from a given position than you need to raise from that same position. Many would consider a marginal raising hand with 6 to follow so if SB were aware of this principle what kind of hand would he likely need to:
A: call with?
B raise with?

I'm putting him on AK or a pocket pair JJ or better. If an Ace flops and he checks I'll put out a (probe) bet looking for a fold (he had a pocket pairs <AA) but if he calls I'm slowing down (he has A and a better kicker or AA). In limit, most overcards will see the turn for a 1/2 bet.
With that flop and SB leading out, you don't know where you are unless you bluff re-raise (representing a pocket pair). A fold = Ax and he's not going to chase, a call is still pp or Ax better than yours and looking for help on the turn at 1/2 full bet and a re-raise is auto-fold for you - he's already made a hand! Other wise, fold to his lead out to save a bet and the chase for what is likely the 2nd best finish is a two dog race.

Do you use PT? I'd be interested to see your AJ stats. If you keep having this discomfort, aggression will just make you more uncomfortable.

I think the real crux of the issue here is SB's range. I alluded to this in my first post.
If he is a thinking player, his range is affected by what he thinks is your range to raise from MP first in. There are many players I'll threebet with 66 or JQ out of the SB. But there are others I'll throw away 88 against a raise from MP when I am in the SB.
I disagree with those that assume the guy has a monster. There are alot of players at these levels that will three bet from SB with worse hands than those assumed.
If you truly have no read, I think you can't raise this flop. It is arguable whether or not to call the flop bet because there is of course a chance you are drawing almost dead. (But there is a chance on ANY hand you are drawing dead, of course!)
I think there is some chance he will check after you call his flop bet, what that % is we don't know because we don't have any reads. But a "random" player maybe checks the turn 25% after you call the flop so that gives some additional value to calling.

So just like my first post I am on the fence and being wishy-washy, but against an unknown I think the correct play is:
Preflop: just call the threebet
Flop: fold or call, but if you improve when you call just go into calldown mode - i.e. don't raise the turn if you improve
Turn: fold unimproved

I don't think the odds are there given his probable range to get hyperagressive, but I think it is a bit weak to assume the guy has a monster.

I do think raising with AJo from MP first in is the correct play at most tables.

Originally Posted by Aces-o-8s

I'm putting him on AK or a pocket pair JJ or better. If an Ace flops and he .

The only problem with this is that, one of the first intermediate preflop concepts people learn in limit poker is that you never flat call a raise out of the SB when it there is only one player in so far, it gives the BB too good of odds to call.
So for example anyone on this forum(granted the average here is better than the average stars player of course) would raise or fold here. So if he knows that (pretty nonadvanced) concept you can't assume that is his only range.

Originally Posted by the alex

Do you use PT? I'd be interested to see your AJ stats. If you keep having this discomfort, aggression will just make you more uncomfortable.

Yes, I use PT, and I am getting killed with my AK,AJ offsuit hands.AQO is a winner..not sure why. Here is what I can see for AJo.
38 times
-.65 BB/hand
VPIP: 92.11
W$WSF: 31.43
PFR%: 52.63
RFI%: 23.68
LWPC: 13.16
WTSD: 34.29
W$SD: 25%

And AKO for the record:

39 times
-.71 BB/hand
VPIP: 97.44 (Cant imagine when i folded one)
W$WSF: 34.29
PFR%: 94.87
RFI%: 30.77
LWPC: 0
WTSD: 74.29
W$SD: 34.62

This has been great feedback so far. If I can figure out why these offsuit Big aces are losers for me I will be able to plug a bit of a leak in my game. It's amazing to me that I am running at 4.5 BB/100 and I am negative with these supposedly strong hands.

Part of the reason I folded here was that I had reviewed these hands in PT and watched every one of the hands where i lost and felt that I was going to far with them. Here I chose to fold rather than repeat the sins of the past.