k so i was thinking about this. say you are pretty deep into a standard STT, say its a speed table on party.

you have 2000 chips, with 5 players remaining. blinds are 200/400, you are most definantly in pushing territory. you havnt played many hands, doubled up early with, say, a set. and played conservitave sense.

so the table looks like this.
CO+1= 4500
CO=6700
bttn: 2300
sb:4400
hero in the bb: 1600 (after posting)
(thats prolly not 20k, but it doesnt really matter)

in the bb you hold
its folds to the sb, who minraises you 400 more chips. he has done this a few times before, and you have folded uncontested. he seems to play tight and conservitave, his raises mean what they mean. preflop he has raised like this with AT, KQ, etc.

so your options are push, call, and fold. every poker player will probably tell you to push here. why? its simple. hes probably going to call, but at worst you are prolly a coin flip.
so the pot contains 1200 including his raise, you would need to call his bet to make the pot 1600, and have 1200 left to raise.

so you are giving him BETTER than 2:1 to call this bet, assuming he raised with at least a decent hand prelop, hes not folding. he assumes hes not worse than 2:1, he might be a favorite with his AQ or whatever
so basically, you are flipping a coin to double up, and there are still 5 people left.

or. you have position.
what if you just called, and pushed on the flop if he checks, regardless of what it is. assume his cards are unpaired. he will flop a pair or better what, 35% of the time with AQ. so, hes still getting 2:1 on your push, but now its not a coinflip with 2:1 odds. hes got 6 outs with only 2:1, you have played conservitavely, you are probably not bluffing. so now if he bets, you are still alive (barely) and you might be able to fold a scary flop (however, you shouldnt) you will probably pick up the pot when you push, but if he calls, you are a big favorite to win if he has just overcards. rather than automatically flipping a coin, would it be better to let your opponent make a mistake.

summary: since he WOULD ALLREADY BE CALLING ANYWAY with whatever hand he had, would it be better to just call in this scenario, and push the flop, whatever it is? that way you make it a little better than a coinflip for yourself.

i am not saying there is a right or wrong answer to this, and im not saying what i think the correct play is. i want to hear how everybody plays it. if you push pf, say WHY you push pf, and why letting him see the flop is a bad play. if you call, say WHY pushing pf is the less of plays.
if you fold, you should probably stop playing sngs.

If you would be prepared to go all in anyway and estimate your preflop fold equity at close to 0%, then I think that given he will fail to pair on flop 33% of the time, the call and push is a correct play.

My reason is simply that you will be first to act after the flop, and you actually gain some fold equity. It is even possible that he may have 99/TT and fold to your all in on a flop of A Q 4. Or he may have 2 live overcards say TJ but fold on a AKx fearing he's drawing dead.

Nice post.

actually you are last to act in this example, if you were the sb you would auto push pf

but thanks

Oops, should read more carefully!
I think it would be a good move if button raised you there for the reasons I gave.

However calling when SB will act first is possibly forcing yourself to make a decision when overcards flop.
Unless you are commiting yourself to call any bet whatever flops and think it is worth calling PF just for the possibility of him checking to you on flop and then folding to a bet?

In this situation I would push. The small blind has seen you fold to a min raise from him on the several occasions, so the chance of him being on a steal is higher than normal. Plus, since he is tight, cons. a push all in might win you the pot right now. Personally, I always have trouble playing pocket 7's so I would push just so that I would not have worry about how to play the flop. (not really the right strategy but since I am usually my worst enemy, I sometimes need to keep myself from second guessing .... myself)

Since you are short stacked, this is not a bad hand to make a stand with.

Originally Posted by Jason75

Just push the damn stack in. LOL

which is why i said it was a thought, i wasnt reccomending it. i autupush in this spot as well, being the short stack ill be happy to take a coin flip or better.

yeah with more chips its probably possible to push the flop, that way like wotawaster said, you create fold equity with alot of hands like TT, JJ on ace high flops. then you probably get some calls (which are -EV) from like AT+ on rag boards.

here though, definantly push PF

I don't think people are describing the Stop and Go correctly.

Stop-n-go is used when you are raised, and any reraise you make, given current pot odds, you opponent is obliged to call. but the flop odds will be bad enough that they shouldn't call with out a hand.

Here is a thread where Raymer discusses it.

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/...=&sb=5&o=&vc=1

Stop n go can be used when you are short, or vs short stacks.