Nuttin' wrong wit dat!

You are putting a lot of money in with only a ~33% of making your hand, but he may have missed the flop completely and fold, or he may get confused when you check the turn and bet at you on the river.

The backdoor flush although rare, really does make it a better play. It will come in around 5%
If you pair on 4th or the river you have to decide if he is bluffing ak(etc) or has a hand.

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

I'm sorry.... I screwed everyone up. I did make a mistake in describing the hand. It was not 6 on the board because I flopped an open-ended straight draw, not a straight. Thinking back now, I can't remember what the card was. I just remember it was a low card. As for the suits, it was a rainbow flop, with only one of my spades on the board after the flop.

As for the play of the hand, I don't like to raise my draws on the flop where I have position if I'm only hoping for a free card on the turn. First, I may not get the check I'm hoping for. If I do, and if I miss the turn and check, then I feel like I have to concede the pot on the river because I can't bluff at it with only a broken draw. I'll get called every time.

On the other hand, depending on the board, by just calling on the flop and raising on the turn, I might take down some pots there, and I have still have some options about how to play the river depending on what falls. For example, in this hand, I wonder how many of you would include 3 kings among your outs. Even though the king wouldn't have improved my hand, if it fell, it would be pretty hard for my opponent to call a raise by me on the river after I had represented having it by my bet on the turn.

Once again, I apologize for misstating the flop board. I appreciate all the comments, and I'll try harder not to confuse everyone in the future.

Lol, dont worry about it, we knew what you meant. We were just giving you a tough time.

Here is a question. If you call call and miss the river do you give it up?

Now if you raise then check and miss the river do you give it up?

They both cost the same. Plus if you hit your draw on fourth, you'll get a lot more play from an overpair than you would if you just called.

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

I wouldn't consider them (Ks) because you really have to bet a lot get people to drop a hand they hit on the flop when overs hit on the turn or river, and if the first K didn't scare him, the second K really should't, as it makes it even less likely that you are holding one.

I have lost a few SnGs trying represent overcards. Although it has worked a few times too, I would only give it one shot. And I think your raise was too small to do any good.

I find I make more money on the made hands at this stage then I do on bluffs. People expect bluffs too often, so they will pay-off a made hand, like happened for you.

Good questions... In both scenarios, an awful lot depends on what the river card is when my draw gets busted.

For example, if the river card in my hand had been an Ace, I would have folded to any bet. AT was clearly within the range of hands that he may have had given his betting patterns.

Now if the river is true rag (i.e., doesn't pair the board, doesn't make a straight possible, etc.), I probably also fold. To raise, my opponent would have to put me on two-pair or a set, and that may be impossible to sell depending on the texture of the board and my betting pattern. For example, in my hand, if a 2 fell on the river, would you believe that I had played a pair of ducks all the way to river with that board and my calls of those bets by my opponent? Not likely.

On the other hand, if a card falls that is consistent with my betting pattern and not likely to have helped my opponent, then I may not have to concede the river. For example, take the hand I described again, but with these changes: I hold QJo, and the flop comes with two-suited cards instead of as a rainbow. Now, if the third suit falls on the river, now a bluffing opportunity exists again. Depending on my read of my opponent's hand and my assessment of his willingness to lay down a hand, that is a river card I might play.

As I thought through all these scenarios, it reminded me why I like this game so much. There's an awful lot to it, and so many ways to play it. What a great hobby.

beavis said it perfect

turn raise makes no sense. you are putting more money into the pot with 30% chance to win the pot?? he isnt folding for a min raise and he him checking to you on the river doesnt matter if you hit or not lol

just call flop and call turn you are getting great odds. if there is no obvious straight on the board and he has AT, you will take his money everytime with the backdoor flush

just call and get paid when you hit and call/fold when you miss

i agree with jack king, or should i say brent p!

I want to address this issue about the turn raise....

Is the objection that I did not raise the turn enough, or is the objection that I raised the turn at all?

I agree with the former observation (as I think I suggested in my original post). If I am going to represent the king, I have to really put my opponent to a decision. The raise here was clearly not enough to do that.

I would disagree, however, with the latter observation. This is not a raise for value... it's a raise to take down the pot from an opponent who cannot beat a pair of kings. Now, I know I did not execute the play very well because I did not bet enough, but I don't think that the thinking behind the play is a bad idea here.

In this regard, it's really no different than the posters who suggested that I raise the flop. It's the same kind of play, but I think that the raise here works much better. On the flop, I don't think that my raise sells because of my preflop limp. I would be representing that I could beat top pair, and my opponent can probably rule out Jacks or better given the preflop action. Thus, his real decision is whether I hit a middle or bottom set, and a lot of players at this level don't make those reads or simply love their TPTK hands.

However, when the K hits on the turn and I raise, that's a hand that people recognize. I may very well have limped in preflop with KJ, Kx suited, or even KQo, and then flat called the flop with two overcards.

Thus, I think that if the play is to raise in order to take a pot, the better spot for it in this hand is on the turn, not the flop. I just need to execute the play better in the future.

Agree or disagree?

you could try to take down the pot on the turn, but i dont like that because

1 they will rarely fold AT on txxk (regardless of what you are ''representing'')
2 with a draw like that for that cheap with great odds why would you want the pot on the turn? call the turn and get paid if you hit on the river.

this hand is supposed to be pretty simple. call/hit/get paid or call/miss/fold

if you are going to raise, make a real raise on the flop or a push on the turn but calling with great odds is such a better play