Mid/Low LIMIT HE, Full table

You are in MP/LP with , EP/MP (who has been very maniacal, frequently making PF raises and flop continuation bets with nothing, usually seeing rivers) raises. The rest of the remaining table is drone-ish, no obvious fishies, no obvious Sharks, VPIP's ranging 15%-35%, normal/weak aggressions. You guess its about 50/50 if one of the blinds will come along for 1 more, probably 25% if its 3 to them.

Do we Fold, Call, or Raise, and why?

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CALL

even if you're not ahead preflop it will pay off if you hit something good. Raising in my oppinion has no use.

If I have any intentions of locking horns with the maniac...I'm raising, to try and get HU with him plus we're showing more strength by 3 betting him. Depending on how much of a maniac he is most people tend to be a bit more cautious when someone 3 bets PF, sepecially if they have a better position on them.

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I hate to flat calling FLH unless 2 other plyer are already in the hand. I I dont feel I can raise 1on1, I fold.

So if only CO, B and Bs are still alive and I really want to play it, I'll raise.

If somebody want to see the flop with you, he will have to be serious.
BB will have much lower pot odds and may have to fold leaving you HU

However, I'm not sure I would do it... I may also fold depending of how maniac he is...

KJ

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Originally Posted by Girevik
Heck, I've seen people go nuts with middle pair!

I am with KJ, who knows what donkish thing I would actually do though.

So if I read this correctly, it is a raise to you and no callers or limpers yet. I think this is raise or fold time. I don't want somebody coldcalling after me that has position on me. I want this headsup with position on the raiser. I think allowing somebody in after you with position on you is awful.

If I was on the button, then it is a bit different. It gives you more flexibility. I might just call then and hope the blinds come along and I hit a flop, but I would probably still raise most of the time. It is extremely rare that I coldcall but a hand like KJs against a maniac on the button might be the time to consider it.

It is funny you bring this up, as played today live for about 5 hours and the lady to my immediate right would raise almost every time when she was the cutoff and I was the button regardless of action in front of her. Usually didn't have a hand and folded, but three bet with AQ and 88 and won both without showdown. Coldcalled with KQo and won, but coldcalled with A10s and flopped an A and backdoor flush and straight draws and capped the flop and called down turn/river but she had AA - so even maniacs get hands sometimes!

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1) you may have the best hand
2) drive out the blinds
3) establish yourself as aggressor in hand
4) drive out players after you i.e. you become the button
5) you can elect to take a free card on the flop (or turn) that you wouldn't get by flatcalling preflop (as villian will bet out almost every time)

I don't understand how you can say raising has no use. I can understand not agreeing with raising, that part is arguable, but it obviously has "some use". I think in a NL cash game it is much more useful to just call and try to hit a flop or turn. Limit is all about pushing marginal edges and against this type of player three betting KJs might be one such situation.

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I was initially going to say call......but it is a mistake to cold call here. If we think the maniac is full of it, lets raise and get it heads up.

My initial reluctance was due to a horrible run this weekend where every time I was in a spot like this the maniac woke up with a hand or rivered me.......the good times are great, but the bad runs are so friggin painful.

I come back to this a few days later and have a good thunk about it.

For purposes of Clarification, lets call this guy VPIP 55%, PFR 25%, Aggro 3.75, WTSD 65%

I think 1/3 of the time, I raise, 2/3 I call. I'd have to look at a clock and figure out where the second or minute hand was to decide this though.

I don't like folding as an option:
1) We proabably have the best hand at the table, including everybody else, and if they have a better hand, they are dronish enough to only raise those better hands.

2) This guy is a major contributor, one of those guys that can really have an affect on your sessions outcome, and KJs is good enough hand to take some chips from him.

Why I like calling:

See #1 above, and therefore if one of these drones do raise, we can release, because they have sent the message that they have THE hand this time.

Dead Money. Or at least contributed money. KJs may not be the best hand to take HU vs this guy, its not bad, but given his history, We are going to end up capping PF, and quite possibly the flop, still with no real info on the guy. Then on the turn, we may or may not get a fwe bets in, but minimum a bet and a call from one of us, same with the river. And unless we hit part of our hand somewhere, we're going to have to call him down cause he bluffs just enough to make it worth seeing. IF we bet out though, he will almost definatly call to the river. A little extra contributed money, and the reduction in variance if they all fold, far offsets the increased variance that occurs from a third player coming along IMO.

Arguements for raising: Get the other donks out of the way. And of course if they cap, we know we can fold. Of course, if they cold call, it doesn't tell us much. Because we can assume they have noticed the loose cannon too (kinda hard to miss), so some of them might be aware of and looking for isolation plays. So cold calling 3 bets from a possible isoloation play with hands like 77 is very possible.

With all that said, I lean towards calling rather than raising.

I think all of you are wrong who said this is a raise or fold scenario. If you would consider limping for 1 bet in a normal game, just consider this limping for 2 bets. I think it's not a raise/fold scenario, but a raise/call one. It's no longer of a matter of IF we are going to play this hand, but HOW.

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Marm,
I can understand your arguement, but I still think it is a mistake to let anyone with position on you into the hand. I don't have any problem with coldcalling on the button here, but you have a great situation here with the maniac in the game to your right, I think you are giving up alot coldcalling and allowing people behind you to coldcall as well. To me, position is the key in this hand.
You are taking a situation where you have a hand with some showdown value UNIMPROVED (against a guy with these stats) -that you have position on- to a situiation where it becomes much more difficult to find out where you are at later in the hand with an extra player behind you.
If you coldcall and someone else coldcalls behind you, I think it is mandatory to raise the maniacs flop bet no matter what the flop if you are going to continue the hand. I still think preflop is raise or fold, but if you choose to coldcall then make the flop raise or fold. . Mxing it up preflop and flop would be the best strategy assuming the table is stable for awhile (not really typical online but pretty typical for a live game).
Interesting thread.

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