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  1. #1
    Poker Hustler
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    Default Some blind play, LHE thoughts?

    Hand 1.

    Well this is a straight up steal met with some resistance. The BB in this case is a typical tag who I have seen be way over-jealous in blind defenses. I had about 50 hands on him, he seemed reasonable but got a bit too aggressive in HU situations 21/14/4.

    Absolute Poker
    Limit Holdem Ring game
    Limit: $1/$2
    9 players
    Converter

    Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with
    5 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

    Flop: (4.5SB, 3 players)
    BB bets, Hero calls.

    Turn: (3.25BB, 3 players)
    BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

    River: (9.25BB, 3 players)
    BB bets, Hero calls.

    ************************************

    Hand 2 is a blind defense hand

    Villian in this case was again tight and aggressive though backed off and folded alot to some decent pressure. I had about 200 hands on the guy he was 13/7/3.7 but he rarely showed down hands he only went to SD 12% of the time.

    Absolute Poker
    Limit Holdem Ring game
    Limit: $1/$2
    8 players
    Converter

    Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is BB with
    4 folds, Villian raises, 1 folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

    Flop: (6SB, 3 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks, Villian, SB folds, Hero raises, Villian 3-bets, Hero calls.

    Turn: (6BB, 2 players)
    Hero checks, Villian bets, Hero raises.............

  2. #2
    Poker Expert Antneye's Avatar
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    Default

    I could be wrong, and probably am, but I don't see how you can be ahead in either hand. Although you still have a live draw in hand 2.

    Is it worth getting into these heads up battles over the blinds? Maybe I need to work on this aspect of my game, but I am not trying to steal with 4 10 off.

    I am also not bothering to to defend in hand 2........

    Does this add much to your overall game? I have really ignored blind defense and stealing so far.....could be that its more relevant at higher levels?

  3. #3
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    Default

    Hand 1, I cap the flop if possible, and if he still gives resistance after that turn, I call him down.

    Hand 2, Yeah, With the SB calling, This is a very borderline defense here. And hot damn I would have cussed you out if I was the villian. Nothing pisses me off more than back to back Check raises. Either A) They are stupid enough to think I'd fall for it twice b) I'm stupid enough to fall for it. But yeah, I think I play this the same.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice, out comes the shotgun.
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

  4. #4
    Poker Professional Pok 7's's Avatar
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    Default

    I don't really have much to offer here as I know I need work in both areas. Thanks for posting this though as I'm interested in hearing the thoughts behind this and the reasons why. Never attempted 1/2 or better yet.

    My limited thoughts currently about it though are:

    Hand 1. I'd raise the flop bet and call if he 3 bets, if he bets into me on the turn I'm probably done with the hand.

    Hand 2. I'd probably lead out with a bet on the turn and just call if raised, because we have quite a few outs here if he's holding QQ, KK or AA, a few less if he has if he has JJ. But we're getting good odds to try for the str8 on the river.

    Now hopefully I am completely off with these and I can hear why my thinking is flawed so I can start looking at it differently. :good:
    Last edited by Pok 7's; 04-27-2006 at 10:25 PM.
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  5. #5
    Poker Professional Eclipse86's Avatar
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    Default

    hmm.. i dont like how either hand was played at all.

    first hand, fold pf.
    second hand, i bet flop then call raise. then check-call turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phytopath

    The BB in this case is a typical tag who I have seen be way over-jealous in blind defenses.
    if that is the case, then why would u want to be involved in a blind battle with him with a shitty hand?? even if u do flop something and u meet resistance, which is highly likely judging from the way u described the villian, you will have a hard time knowing if ur ahead or not.

    the first hand should not have happened at all imo. sorry if im being too harsh.
    Last edited by Eclipse86; 04-27-2006 at 10:15 PM.

  6. #6
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    To answer the other poster, yes - blind stealing and blind defense is a huge part of the higher limits and if you leak money in these situations you are in trouble at the higher limits.

    Hand 1: What is with the flop call??????? I would have folded the flop. If you want to try to keep the pressure up you have to raise on the flop here, not call. I don't see the point of flatcalling and then raising the turn. The 10 may not have put you ahead anyway. For him to fold the turn he would have to be:
    1) three betting with crap preflop
    2) not caught a piece of the flop with his crap
    3) not picked up a draw on the turn with his crap
    With a J and 10 and 2 spades on the board this combo is REALLY unlikely.
    I think this hand was chip spewing past the preflop steal part.

    I love aggressive stealing but against certain players there is no way to make it profitable enough to be worth it, and you have to give up sometimes. At least wait and go to war in hands where you have reasonable outs. Remember, for stealing to be +EV you can't spew all the chips you steal in the hands people defend......

    Hand 2: I have no problem with how you played it. I assume if the SB called the flop you would have called instead of raised. I have to admit I would have checkcalled the turn and then bet out on the river improved, checkcalled unimproved with the pair of eights. May be a little weak, but I think I'd rather keep the pot smaller and get to showdown for less of a price, but the line you took is reasonable I think.
    Tough hand to say the exact best line to take and defend it strongly.
    Last edited by growlers; 04-28-2006 at 01:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis68
    Quit playing poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by backdoor
    First of all you foul mouthed imbecile. I think the value of forums is immeasurible. Forums are the one place you can learn the game. Forums are a learning medium. The problem I find in forums are, your post. We are talking to hot headed, juveniles, who have no clue what they are doing. You have to weed through posts such as yours to get valuable information.

  7. #7
    Check Raiser growlers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marm
    Hand 1, I cap the flop if possible, and if he still gives resistance after that turn, I call him down.
    .
    What? Am I reading the same thread? What am I missing? I feel like I got hit in the head with a rock and those little birds are circling overhead reading this.
    What am I missing?
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis68
    Quit playing poker.
    Quote Originally Posted by backdoor
    First of all you foul mouthed imbecile. I think the value of forums is immeasurible. Forums are the one place you can learn the game. Forums are a learning medium. The problem I find in forums are, your post. We are talking to hot headed, juveniles, who have no clue what they are doing. You have to weed through posts such as yours to get valuable information.

  8. #8
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    Default

    you are missing the fact that marm is part maniac.

  9. #9
    Poker Hustler
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    Quote Originally Posted by growlers
    To answer the other poster, yes - blind stealing and blind defense is a huge part of the higher limits and if you leak money in these situations you are in trouble at the higher limits.

    Hand 1: What is with the flop call??????? I would have folded the flop. If you want to try to keep the pressure up you have to raise on the flop here, not call. I don't see the point of flatcalling and then raising the turn. The 10 may not have put you ahead anyway. For him to fold the turn he would have to be:
    1) three betting with crap preflop
    2) not caught a piece of the flop with his crap
    3) not picked up a draw on the turn with his crap
    With a J and 10 and 2 spades on the board this combo is REALLY unlikely.
    I think this hand was chip spewing past the preflop steal part.
    That type of flop was really the kind that misses people especially people who 3-bet PF, the spades maybe helped I really didn't know. My plan was to call the flop and raise the with just about any card, since the villian here seemed out of line compared to how he played big pairs before. Also if he had overcards he was gonna call my flop raise if I used one so it had no real value. So the turn comes he bets and I raise, the card actually helped alot pairing me up. To my suprise the villian 3-bets me, now I had seen him do it before when he thinks people are bluffing him, but at this point I put him on pocket pair probably an overpair to the board. I bloated the pot, so I felt that I had to call the extra bet and called the river, because I felt there was a greater than 1 in 9 chance he was bluffing or had a PP under TTs.

    In essence here I was setting up my turn move on the flop, I was trying to play the hand similar to how I would have played the hand had I AJ, and in HUs situations I play AJ like this fairly often.


    I love aggressive stealing but against certain players there is no way to make it profitable enough to be worth it, and you have to give up sometimes. At least wait and go to war in hands where you have reasonable outs. Remember, for stealing to be +EV you can't spew all the chips you steal in the hands people defend......

    Hand 2: I have no problem with how you played it. I assume if the SB called the flop you would have called instead of raised. I have to admit I would have checkcalled the turn and then bet out on the river improved, checkcalled unimproved with the pair of eights. May be a little weak, but I think I'd rather keep the pot smaller and get to showdown for less of a price, but the line you took is reasonable I think.
    Tough hand to say the exact best line to take and defend it strongly.
    Yeah on the flop I was just gonna call with my up and down draw if the SB had called, when he folded it gave me a better shot at trying to take the pot down here with a semi-bluff. Turn here I still had the up and down draw but also paired up, it was a close decision here between call and raise. I chose to check raise since I figured this player was capable of folding a better hand than I had, and against better players nothing is more annoying than the double check raise, in essence I did it because it made me look more like a donkey trying to play a monster. He folded his hand in this case my guess is he had AK/AQ or possibly even QQ or JJ.

  10. #10
    PokerForums God Marm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis68
    you are missing the fact that marm is part maniac.
    That is true.

    I have found, with correct reads, that Blind defenses/steals are won on the 3rd or 4th bet on the flop. It comes doswn to the "Damn, He serious" realization by one of the players. By betting the flop here, he's telling me hes got AA-QQ, or he totally missed, so therefore a raise on the flop will better define his hand. Top pair doesn't lead out here. I don't care if we got 2 uno cards here, we can win this pot with pure aggression. Its HU limit now. If he 3 bets, with reads, I may play or I may fold. Most likely that flopped missed him, and I'm not letting him steal a decent pot just because he's got bigger balls.
    Marm is back, maybe. Been off for 3 years. Rusty as Hell.

    Luck is a Residue of Design.

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