sng strategy

tightagressive · #1 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 01:22 PM

standard sng's in each scenario, payouts 50 30 20%
lets see what you guys do in these situations
assume in each that we are playing with the standard idiots who will call a push with nearly any ace or pocket pair, KQ, KJ, unless i specify otherwise
lets also say these are turbos
at this point you have built a table image of a fairly tight player, you have taken some pots down uncontested but have show down a few big hands. nobody has any reason to belive you are wreckless

answer as many as you like(be it 1 or all), i wanna hear how you are all playing in the endgame. i just played all these hands so they are all real and im remembering them to the best of my ability (simmilar to HOH)

these should be very easy decisions, btw

1. blinds are 100/200, you are shortie with 4 players left at t1500. everyone limps to you on the bb (which has been par for the course thus far)
you have AQs
whats your play?

2. same hand, you have QQ, whats your play?

3. blinds are 300/600, 3 players left, you are dominating with t12000, you have ATs on the button
whats your play?

4. same hand, you have Q2o

5. 4 players left, you and 3 other players have approx. t5500, while there is a shortie with the remaining 3500. its been TIGHT play, the other 2 players have obviously been waiting for somone to take out shortie, while shortie is obviously waiting for a big hand. there have been a few pf raises, blinds are 400/800 w/ a 25 chip ante.
The button limps, sb completes, you have 99 in the BB. shortie folded in the CO.
whats your play?

6. same hand, only you are shortie with 77 in the CO
7. last question. take the scenario from # 6, what is the minimum hand you need to push here in order to be +EV

have fun

Joem04 · #2 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

1. blinds are 100/200, you are shortie with 4 players left at t1500. everyone limps to you on the bb (which has been par for the course thus far)
you have AQs
whats your play?

2. same hand, you have QQ, whats your play?

3. blinds are 300/600, 3 players left, you are dominating with t12000, you have ATs on the button
whats your play?

4. same hand, you have Q2o

5. 4 players left, you and 3 other players have approx. t5500, while there is a shortie with the remaining 3500. its been TIGHT play, the other 2 players have obviously been waiting for somone to take out shortie, while shortie is obviously waiting for a big hand. there have been a few pf raises, blinds are 400/800 w/ a 25 chip ante.
The button limps, sb completes, you have 99 in the BB. shortie folded in the CO.
whats your play?

6. same hand, only you are shortie with 77 in the CO
7. last question. take the scenario from # 6, what is the minimum hand you need to push here in order to be +EV

have fun

1. Push
2. Push
3. Raise 3-4x
4. Fold
5. I think there is an extra person in there but, Push
6. Push
7. No clue

ypsieast · #3 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 02:03 PM

Initial thoughts:

1) 80% push / 20% check
2) 100% push
3) raise 2000
4) 50% fold / 50% raise 2000
5) 75% push / 25% check
6) push
7) any pair, any ace, KJ+, K8s+, QT+, JT

Jason75 · #4 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

1. blinds are 100/200, you are shortie with 4 players left at t1500. everyone limps to you on the bb (which has been par for the course thus far) you have AQs whats your play?

A: This is a tough one given the chipstack, money position, and without an understanding of the opposing players. My experience is that when it gets down to the final 4, there whole table tightens up tremedously (nobody wants to be bubble boy). If there aren't any tricky players out there, I'm probably going to raise to 500. If reraised by UTG, I'm going to fold (the only one I'm going to give consideration when I'm this short). A reraise the Button or SB is a call. If I'm flat called, I'm likely all in on the flop. But the small PF raise will likely take down the pot (at this stage it actually represents a very strong hand trying to entice a call). If I have just slightly fewer chips, I'm all in praying for a call and double up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

2. same hand, you have QQ, whats your play?

All in, praying for a call. I'm not folding this to anyone, so I'm not going to donk around with a smaller raise to leave myself an out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

3. blinds are 300/600, 3 players left, you are dominating with t12000, you have ATs on the button
whats your play?

How much do the blinds have left? If they're really short, I'm going to put them all in and hope they call with a dominated ace or a 3:2 hand. If they fold, then my AT wasn't going to get any action anyway. Note that if they're short enough, I'm just going to keep putting them all in on every button and dare them to pick up a hand.

If they can really hurt me, then I'm going to make a 5x bb raise (or the min I think would take the pot down). If I run into serious resistance, I'll do the math, and go with the pot odds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

4. same hand, you have Q2o

See above for if they're short. If they are too tight, I'm raising here regardless of what I hold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

5. 4 players left, you and 3 other players have approx. t5500, while there is a shortie with the remaining 3500. its been TIGHT play, the other 2 players have obviously been waiting for somone to take out shortie, while shortie is obviously waiting for a big hand. there have been a few pf raises, blinds are 400/800 w/ a 25 chip ante.
The button limps, sb completes, you have 99 in the BB. shortie folded in the CO.
whats your play?

Has the button been limping, or is this unusual? Does the SB usually fold, or complete? BTW - With the 400/800 +25 blinds/antes, I wouldn't call 3500 the "shortie" when everyone else is hovering around 5500.

Without any other information, If you don't raise this, stop playing tournaments in general, and SNG's in particular. I'd raise about 1/2 the current pot, or to about 2000 total to go (this includes your 800 + 1200 raise). If reraised, I'm all in (exactly what I was looking for). If flat called, I'm all in on any flop that doesn't include an A or K.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

6. same hand, only you are shortie with 77 in the CO

All in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

7. last question. take the scenario from # 6, what is the minimum hand you need to push here in order to be +EV

It doesn't matter. All in with any 2 cards.

Beavis68 · #5 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason75

A: This is a tough one given the chipstack, money position, and without an understanding of the opposing players. My experience is that when it gets down to the final 4, there whole table tightens up tremedously (nobody wants to be bubble boy). If there aren't any tricky players out there, I'm probably going to raise to 500. If reraised by UTG, I'm going to fold (the only one I'm going to give consideration when I'm this short). A reraise the Button or SB is a call. If I'm flat called, I'm likely all in on the flop. But the small PF raise will likely take down the pot (at this stage it actually represents a very strong hand trying to entice a call). If I have just slightly fewer chips, I'm all in praying for a call and double up.

Jason, you problably have the highest standard deviation in post quality in anyone on the site.

You think 3 players are going to put up 200 chips, then fold for an additional 300? getting over 3.5:1 on their money and having position on you?

That is bizarre.

pocketje · #6 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason75

A: This is a tough one given the chipstack, money position, and without an understanding of the opposing players. My experience is that when it gets down to the final 4, there whole table tightens up tremedously (nobody wants to be bubble boy). If there aren't any tricky players out there, I'm probably going to raise to 500. If reraised by UTG, I'm going to fold (the only one I'm going to give consideration when I'm this short). A reraise the Button or SB is a call. If I'm flat called, I'm likely all in on the flop. But the small PF raise will likely take down the pot (at this stage it actually represents a very strong hand trying to entice a call). If I have just slightly fewer chips, I'm all in praying for a call and double up.

All in, praying for a call. I'm not folding this to anyone, so I'm not going to donk around with a smaller raise to leave myself an out.

How much do the blinds have left? If they're really short, I'm going to put them all in and hope they call with a dominated ace or a 3:2 hand. If they fold, then my AT wasn't going to get any action anyway. Note that if they're short enough, I'm just going to keep putting them all in on every button and dare them to pick up a hand.

If they can really hurt me, then I'm going to make a 5x bb raise (or the min I think would take the pot down). If I run into serious resistance, I'll do the math, and go with the pot odds.

See above for if they're short. If they are too tight, I'm raising here regardless of what I hold.

Has the button been limping, or is this unusual? Does the SB usually fold, or complete? BTW - With the 400/800 +25 blinds/antes, I wouldn't call 3500 the "shortie" when everyone else is hovering around 5500.

Without any other information, If you don't raise this, stop playing tournaments in general, and SNG's in particular. I'd raise about 1/2 the current pot, or to about 2000 total to go (this includes your 800 + 1200 raise). If reraised, I'm all in (exactly what I was looking for). If flat called, I'm all in on any flop that doesn't include an A or K.

All in.

It doesn't matter. All in with any 2 cards.

your first point is interesting. When short stacked I think a raise like this can be more effective then a allin since a allin screams 'go away!' which makes stubborn people call, at least every now and then. 5x BB means that you realy have a killer and dont want to scare the others away, so the others will find themselves very brave to fold in most cases. And most likely your opponents have hands like AX KQ Jt anyways.

I'm not sure about the fold after a reraise.

(edit: After beavis its comment I noticed it was a 2.5x bb raise. Which makes the raise silly. So lets see this as if the blinds were 50/100 please

)

tightagressive · #7 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 02:45 PM

now that there are plenty of replies, ill put out what i consider is the best play in each scenario.

1. push! the table (as i mentioned) had been limping in with weak hands trying to see cheap flops. based on their action thus far, i would be VERY suprised if i was worse than a coin flip. I push here, hope to steal the blinds. if i steal, i increase my stack. if im called, im probably favored, at worst a coin flip.
jason. raising 500 here isnt a great play imo. you are giving everyone decent enough odds to call, and you do NOT want to fold after investing 500 chips. (even if somone raises, its probably a coin flip and you are priced in with better than 2:1!!!!) you do not want to see the flop and miss. your best possible chance to win the hand is to push.

2. push and pray for a call. do not bet any ammount other than all in.

3. make a standard raise of what has been usually stealing the blinds. you are very happy to take the blinds from the short stacks. if one of them pushes, you probably call. raising enough to push them all in isnt TOO bad of a play, but if they call and i miss the flop i would like to be able to get off the hand.

4. actually, im not going to try to steal here. i have a horrible hand, a giant stack, if i raise they are PROBABLY going to raise all in with any reasonable hand.

5. push. you will be out of position after the flop, and you are very certain to have the best hand here. if you are called i will be suprised. i will be even more suprised if you are worse than coin flip, you might be better. clear push

6. clear push, needs no explanation (i hope)

7. any 2 cards.

pocketje · #8 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tightagressive

now that there are plenty of replies, ill put out what i consider is the best play in each scenario.

1. push! the table (as i mentioned) had been limping in with weak hands trying to see cheap flops. based on their action thus far, i would be VERY suprised if i was worse than a coin flip. I push here, hope to steal the blinds. if i steal, i increase my stack. if im called, im probably favored, at worst a coin flip.
jason. raising 500 here isnt a great play imo. you are giving everyone decent enough odds to call, and you do NOT want to fold after investing 500 chips. (even if somone raises, its probably a coin flip and you are priced in with better than 2:1!!!!) you do not want to see the flop and miss. your best possible chance to win the hand is to push.

2. push and pray for a call. do not bet any ammount other than all in.

3. make a standard raise of what has been usually stealing the blinds. you are very happy to take the blinds from the short stacks. if one of them pushes, you probably call. raising enough to push them all in isnt TOO bad of a play, but if they call and i miss the flop i would like to be able to get off the hand.

4. actually, im not going to try to steal here. i have a horrible hand, a giant stack, if i raise they are PROBABLY going to raise all in with any reasonable hand.

5. push. you will be out of position after the flop, and you are very certain to have the best hand here. if you are called i will be suprised. i will be even more suprised if you are worse than coin flip, you might be better. clear push

6. clear push, needs no explanation (i hope)

7. any 2 cards.

Did you get your SNG skills by practice or mainly by SNG tools?

Jason75 · #9 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beavis68

Jason, you problably have the highest standard deviation in post quality in anyone on the site.

Oh Pokerforums God, do you mean that my posts are improperly formatted, or that you disagree with the content? LOL!

BTW, Beav, have you considered taking a vacation recently? From the above comment, I'd highly recommend it. You need some time away from engineering. . . . (coming from a former engineer)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beavis68

You think 3 players are going to put up 200 chips, then fold for an additional 300? getting over 3.5:1 on their money and having position on you?

Depends on the table environment . . . . but yes. A very small raise here shows some real strength . . . it's begging a call and a lot of players will decide that on the bubble with very short stacks they'd rather not piss away anymore chips in a "lost cause".

That's the weird thing in these SNGs . . . the ebb and flow of the game often having nothing to do with any kind of mathematical analysis. Some players simply refuse to go out on the bubble . . . particularly medium to slighly weaker players who don't see the $ very often. Those types of players are going to see a big reraise as a bluff (which they may not be able to call anyway) and a small one as a trap. I think in the long run, a small reraise is going to get hands like small pairs and KT and lower hands to fold, while an all in is going to get the calls from 22+ which we're an underdog to and weaker hands which we're only a 3:2 favorite over.

Just like the limp play with the AK (now that we have third party verfication from Irexes and phytopath), you've got to trust me on this one and give it a shot before you decide it's crap.

BTW - I'm not saying that I have a problem with the all in - in fact I will probably use it about 25% of the time here (or more depending on how loose the opposing players are or other information I have on them). But rather than just give the typical "in the box" answer of "all in", I'm going to tell you what I would do.

Jason75 · #10 (**permalink**) 04-24-2006, 03:41 PM

To everyone who automatically pushes all in on AQ in hand #1:

How would you play AA or KK in this situation?