I was just on a final table on pokerroom. Of course I can't get the hand history now because I can't remember the hand number, stupid software.
Anyways, I was QQ on the BB. There are 7 left. UTG+2 goes all in for his remaining 8000 or so chips, I have ~40000 sitting in 4th place. The chip leader on the SB flat calls his bet and the action is on me.
Now what would be the right move here? I am 99% sure I am ahead here but I know for sure that atleast one of these 2 has an ace. The chip leader is currently on a heater, not that it matters, but he had AA and KK in back to back hands to knock out 9th and 8th place.
I ended up pushing my remaining 40000 chips into the 18000 pot to hopefully knock out the chip leader looking for a chance to knock out another person. He ended up calling my all-in with AKo and of course flopped another K. The small stack had A4o. Turn and river came with no help and I'm out in 5th.
I thought it was a good play at first but with someone already all-in at the final table, should I have flat called and seen what happened on the flop?
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Thread: Final Table Decision
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04-19-2006 #1Chaser
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Final Table Decision
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04-19-2006 #2
This is a good question. I think a lot of times players in these situations fail to take into account the table dynamics and get sucked into a hand like a medium pair or AQ or even QQ.
The thing that's missing here is: What are the blinds right now? This makes a big difference in how I'm going to answer the question. Also, how many chips do the SB and CL have? And what's your table image?
Where has your money been coming from? Mostly steals, mostly won hands (and how did you win them? - PF confrontations?)?Jason75: Ok, you check and the button bets 400. Now what?
Beavis68: You play poker.
Jason75: Darn, I was really hoping for canasta. Maybe Gin.
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04-19-2006 #3Chaser
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Knew I was forgetting something, wish I had the hand history.
Blinds are 1500/3000 and about to go up to 2000/4000. I have been playing TAG most of the time but most of my chips have come from resteals since the rest of the table was a little too tight for their own good. I hadn't had a showdown on the final table yet and this was the first table I was playing with the CL at. I had been quiet for a while but I had stolen a few pots at the beginning of the final table.
SB - 8500 chips
CL - 90000 chips
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04-19-2006 #4
An important question to ask ourselves any time we make an action is "why am I _________?".
So we have QQ on the button, an M of just under 9. We have 3K already in the blinds, and it's now 5K to call a pot of 27,000.
With the UTG+2 and SB effectively all in, why are we trying to raise? Let's look at the different scenarios:
1. We raise all in (the only raise that makes sense).
A. The CL folds, and we're now heads up against 2 other hands that are all in. If we win, we now have 64,000 in chips, and our real money equity increases quite a bit as we knock out 2 other players.
B. The CL calls, and we're now heads up against 3 other hands that are all in (including that we're in for our lives). If we win, we now have 104,000 in chips, and our real money equity skyrockets as we knock out 2 players and become the overwhelming CL.
C. The CL calls, we're heads up against 3 all in hands, and we lose but the other 2 players lose as well. We're out ahead of the other 2 stacks and we make some more $ because of that.
D. The CL calls, we're heads up against 3 all in hands, and we lose, and one of the small stacks survives. Ouch. We've just lost equity here, because we surely could have survived longer than both of these short stacks if we had just called or folded.
2. We flat call, getting 5:1 on our money.
A. The flop comes all undercards or we hit our set. We can now safely value bet a smaller amount - this basically tells the CL that "I've got a hand that beats you right now, do you really want to stick around and try to catch a card on me?", or we can try and trap him if the flop comes with a Q and an A or K.
B. The flop comes all undercards. We decide to just make sure we bust the other players and check it down with the CL. If he bets, we carefully consider if he is just an idiot or if that means he's got AA or KK or something like AJ (if it comes J high).
C. The flop comes with at least one overcard. We check, trying to act like we're checking it down, and see what the CL does. If he bets, we fold. Otherwise we check the hand down.
I think on balance, just flat calling is the play to make here. We have to see the flop anyways, so we might as well see it cheaply. If the flop is friendly, we have a lot of options here. If it's unfriendly, we have left ourselves an out.
Not to mention that as far as real $ goes, our best play is to try and eliminate the smaller stacks without risking elimination ourselves.Last edited by Jason75; 04-19-2006 at 03:54 PM.
Jason75: Ok, you check and the button bets 400. Now what?
Beavis68: You play poker.
Jason75: Darn, I was really hoping for canasta. Maybe Gin.
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04-19-2006 #5PokerForums God
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without knowing chip stacks and the payout structure, no one can really give you an anwer.
All I can say is that if pushing is -ev, it can't be that -ev.
personally, I dont like just calling
1. you put yourself in a position to have to check it down where you may get paid off on a PFR
2. perhaps folding the best hand if the CL is a donk.
3. you could lose a hand like AT or 77 post flop that may have paid you off PF
4. you risk getting your money in drawing dead.
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04-19-2006 #6River Rat
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- Nov 2005
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I'm sorta worried about the flat call by chip leader...but i push here for sure
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04-20-2006 #7
No one seems to have mentioned the option of folding. I don't think I would fold but I'm sure some pros would and depending on the payout structure it may be worth considering.
Your main aim as a relatively big stack is to hang around while the shortstacks get busted until you hit the final 3 or 4 places (the real money)and then open up and become more aggresive.
If you think the CL may call your all in, even with Ax then there is roughly a 30% chance you will be eliminated from tournament. If he has Ak its 50% and if he has AA/KK (which he would flat call with trying to lure others in) you are in very bad shape. Why take that risk?
You said the table is tight, just hang around stealing blinds and climb up the prize ladder as the shortstacks bust out.
Personally I would call for the reasons Jason outlined, but folding does have some merit.
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04-20-2006 #8
Well, as I mentioned in a previous post, I'm weak-tight in tournaments, but with one AI and 2 callers, I'm folding this. At this point, let the others fight it out. There maybe a chance I have the best hand right now (likely) but will it still be best at the end of the hand.
While the SS AI could be a huge range of hands, the other 2 callers have stated I have a hand that is decent...I'm willing to gamble. Since we're so close to some serious money, you've got a read on the table that you can steal (and resteal) to keep your stack decent, I'm waiting while they fight it out...
I also think that if there are no other callers to the AI, I'm calling. If there is a single caller then I'm probably calling...with 2 or more callers (even to a SS AI) I'm usually folding unless I'm sitting on AA or I have a huge CL and I can afford to gamble...Trons
Originally Posted by Jason75
JstTrons
Toyotatruck

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04-20-2006 #9
I'm playing for first.
PUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Though I can see the merit of calling for maximum value on this final table in isolation.
The CL could have all sorts of hands. Start folding QQ here and you're in serious trouble.
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04-20-2006 #10PokerForums God
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Trons, where are you getting two callers?
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