Implied pot odds from additional callers?

**Trons** · 04-16-2006

I've been thinking about this and I can't seem to find anything mentioned in the books I have. Basically, you're BB in a NLHE tournament and there are several (3) limpers. CO or button puts in a 5bb raise (pot=9.5BB) SB folds giving you about 2:1 to call. Depending on your hand depends on whether you can call in this situation but...If you "know" or feel that 1 or 2 of the other guys are going to call anyway, can't you extrapolate your pot odds to 3-4:1 allowing you to call in this situation with more marginal hands and try to out play them post flop?

I haven't started trying to apply this situation to the game yet, but it's a situation I've noticed lately (as I become more aware of the people at the table) and I'm wondering if I can use these types of reads to allow me to call in situations I previously thought were -EV but because there may be over calls would actually be +EV? Comments?

**tightagressive** · 04-16-2006

if you "knew" that one of your opponents was going to call then yes your implied oddds would slightly increase. however i dont think this is that great of a spot.

you are out of position, so if you flop a draw you have no idea what do do, and have no potential to steal the pot.
you dont actually "know" if the other 2 guys are going to call, they might even raise.
even if you flop a monster, who is going to pay you for it? 3 guys in EP limped, representing weak/medium srength hands, the button saw this and raised. there is a pretty good chance nobody really has much, so your implied odds are there, but not as good as this scenario. if the blinds are big enough this is a nice spot for the button to steal.

you have

on the CO
UTG, a tight, solid player raises 3x the BB.
2 players call, and you call because unlike the first example, you KNOW utg has a very solid hand! the 2 mp callers give you decent pot odds, and if you flop a set not only do you have position but there is a very good chance to stack UTG. not to mention the 2 other people that came along.

i will not call in the bb in the spot with many hands. rather, if i had something like QQ i would definantly like to make a big raise and try to end the hand right there. the only time i will call from here is when a guy UTG raises and MANY people call. that way i know i have solid pot odds, i know i need to win the hand x ammount of times in order to break even, and ill flop a big enough hand more than that.

ALWAYS think of pot odds first, then implied odds.

**WotaWaster** · 04-16-2006

Plus when you make a call that doesn't close the bidding you have to be aware of further reraises.

Has the player UTG limped with AA or KK and is going to reraise all in?

Are there any players with less than 15BB left who may have flat called with a hand like pocket 9's but may decide if they are calling a 5BB raise they may as well push all in?

This uncertainty, combined with being out of position post flop means you should look for better pot + impied odds than if you were closing the betting for the round. I would happily call a 3BB in that situation, but I think 5BB is a little too high to call with a drawing hand like low pocket pair.

**Trons** · 04-16-2006

Maybe the example I gave wasn't the greatest. I was thinking in far more general terms. As far as your example, that's pretty text book stuff, you already have the pot odds to call and the implied odds are secondary to the decision to the call. I was thinking more about using the implied odds of over calls to help with the decision to call with more marginal hands then you might other wise be tempted to call with.

Maybe a more general example would be better. Let's say similar situation only instead of being in the BB, you're on the button with

. Because of the way the limpers have been playing, you are reasonably certain that one or two of the limpers is coming along from the ride. Would the read you have on the limpers (they're calling stations) warrent a call in a situation you would normally fold the hand to the raise?

**tightagressive** · 04-16-2006

i would probably call there^, because if they are calling stations you have implied odds if you flop a big hand, you have position, and you have a decent hand.

**Yvraine** · 04-17-2006

The whole definition of implied odds is based on the chips that aren't in the pot now, but you think will be in the pot, right? There's nothing that says this has to be on future rounds of betting only.

Of course, you need to take into account the extra chips that you'll need to pay to stay in the hand to get those implied chips.

**Mr.McJ** · 04-17-2006

I hate when you make that call and then one of the limpers decides to stick in a re-raise.
Check this out...

I know, I know.....fold PF.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed)

UTG ($8.61)
UTG+1 ($5.44)
Hero ($5.30)
MP2 ($1.05)
MP3 ($4.95)
CO ($9.95)
Button ($4.92)
SB ($4.42)
BB ($3.64)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with

,

.
UTG calls $0.05, UTG+1 calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, MP3 calls $0.05, 1 fold, Button raises to $0.1, SB calls $0.08, BB calls $0.05, UTG calls $0.05, UTG+1 calls $0.05, Hero calls $0.05, MP2 calls $0.05, MP3 raises to $0.15, Button calls $0.05, SB calls $0.05, BB raises to $0.25, UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, Hero folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05, SB raises to $2.07, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $1.80, Button calls $1.80.

Flop: ($7.02)

,

(3 players)
SB checks, MP3 bets $1.5, Button raises to $2.92, SB calls $2.42 (All-In), MP3 calls $1.42.

Turn: ($15.28)

(3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($15.28)

(3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $15.28

Results in white below:
SB has Qc Qd (one pair, queens).
MP3 has Jh Ah (one pair, jacks).
Button has 4d 4h (one pair, fours).
Outcome: SB wins $14.28. MP3 wins $1.

**Jason75** · 04-17-2006

I think at some point you're leaving the realm of realistic and predictable probabilities and getting into wild speculation.

None of us like folding our speculative hands to a raise after a bunch of limpers when we're in the BB or even on the button, but I think realistically it's usually the right move. It's just our bad luck getting stuck in a sandwich play. I think there's also a fine line between trying to shave off every edge from our play, and talking ourselves into playing in -EV situations.

That being said, if the raise is small compared to your stack and you have something like a pair, I'd probably put in a call. If I have to fold to another reraise (which doesn't give me the odds to call), it's not that big of a loss, and if I hit my hand I'm likely going to stack the other player(s).

**tightagressive** · 04-17-2006

exactly, well said^

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