Something for possible discussion... let's see if it even gets off the ground

I've noticed when playing that there are some people who like to bet their draws and obviously more who love to chase them. I was wondering what you guys think about if/when to bet/chase draws (I'm talking limit games here). Now I understand this is a pretty broad topic to cover and every situation is dependant on blah, blah, blah .

I'm mostly talking about flush and OESD's, how far will you generally take/push them? Will you take a flush draw to the river on a fairly ragged board all the time as long as you're getting better then 4:1? What about OESD's?

I guess my overall question here is will you usually play straight/flush draws strictly based on pot odds if you think a completed flush or straight can be the winning hand, and other than a semi bluff are they ever worth betting.

There is a component other than semi-bluff you have to consider, and that's pot equity.

If there are 4 or more people in the pot and you have a flush draw or OESD, then you actually come out ahead by betting if everyone calls (a better play is to raise from late position with 3 people in because you're almost SURE they won't fold to another bet). Basically your pot equity is about 35% and you're only contributing 25% of the bets to the pot so you come out ahead in the long run.

^ See here's something that is still a bit tough for me to try and calculate during a hand..even afterwards to be honest . By betting you're increasing the pot odds if your draw hits, however I remember in one of Skalansky's books he suggested check/calling when you have outs to a draw, and betting when you have a hand.. but with few outs.

I also remember Marm saying this about pot equity

Originally Posted by Marm

Not really, Pot odds are the bet vs pot. Equity is your actual share of the pot vs your equal share. Its a way to calculate EV for a hand too.

Ex. You are the hand with 3 others, your equal share of the pot is 25%, but if your hand dictates you have a 30% chance of winning, then you have 30% pot equity, or 5% EV equity. You can then multiply the pot the 5% to figure out how much you stand to make on each hand.

pot odds are very useful during play, but equity is most useful in post mortems.....

So essentially for a flush draw to be profitable for example you'd need 4 people in the hand and also believe that if your flush hits you have better than a 25% chance of it holding up to be profitable.

So essentially OSED and FD's arent generally worth drawing to if a total of 3 people are less are in the pot post flop?

Originally Posted by Beavis68

you talkign limit or no limit?

Limit games

Originally Posted by Pok 7's

So essentially for a flush draw to be profitable for example you'd need 4 people in the hand and also believe that if your flush hits you have better than a 25% chance of it holding up to be profitable.

So essentially OSED and FD's arent generally worth drawing to if a total of 3 people are less are in the pot post flop?

Betting the draws is BARELY profitable with 2 others in the pot if your hand holds up every time. I think the extra person in the pot makes that play EV+ with 4 people even if you think there's a 25% chance it may not be good - you've got enough excess equity to make up for those rare times your flush gets beat.

The number of people is only a consideration for betting or raising with your draw. If there are fewer than that and you're looking at just calling it becomes a straight pot odds problem. You may very well have the odds to call one sb on the flop with two or even one opponent, especially if the pot was raised pre flop.

Originally Posted by Pok 7's

^ See here's something that is still a bit tough for me to try and calculate during a hand..even afterwards to be honest . By betting you're increasing the pot odds if your draw hits, however I remember in one of Skalansky's books he suggested check/calling when you have outs to a draw, and betting when you have a hand.. but with few outs.


I also remember Marm saying this about pot equity
blah blah blah

So essentially for a flush draw to be profitable for example you'd need 4 people in the hand and also believe that if your flush hits you have better than a 25% chance of it holding up to be profitable.

So essentially OSED and FD's arent generally worth drawing to if a total of 3 people are less are in the pot post flop?

That Sklansky advice is for tighter tables. If you got a bunch of cally wallys, bluffing is a bad thing. In those cases where you are bluffing more than semi, you need to have fold equity on your side.

Its all about Pot-odds, not the people in the pot. At the SSH tables, You need to bet your made hands and your draws when you think your hand will best at the end a plurality of the time. It's not about how many people are in the pot perse, but if you are going to win more than your fair share of the pot a plurality of the time.