i cant get bisons to work, so i have to post it raw.


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Hand #30345022-179 at Wed5K5add-016 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 15/Mar/06 21:23:05

hot_dog_321 is at seat 0 with 2985.
fish0612 is at seat 1 with 4400.
Eclipse2005 is at seat 2 with 10640.
DAYTRADR is at seat 3 with 12555.
DAJNGLKNG is at seat 4 with 23295.
cburg_tiger is at seat 5 with 7145.
bingobird is at seat 6 with 415.
notchfire is at seat 7 with 20860.
Eric Halfabee is at seat 8 with 24640.
TxLonghorns04 is at seat 9 with 9880.
The button is at seat 6.

hot_dog_321 posts ante (50).
fish0612 posts ante (50).
Eclipse2005 posts ante (50).
DAYTRADR posts ante (50).
DAJNGLKNG posts ante (50).
cburg_tiger posts ante (50).
bingobird posts ante (50).
notchfire posts ante (50).
Eric Halfabee posts ante (50).
TxLonghorns04 posts ante (50).
Eric Halfabee posts the small blind of 200.
TxLonghorns04 posts the big blind of 400.

hot_dog_321: -- --
fish0612: -- --
Eclipse2005: 4s 4h
DAYTRADR: -- --
DAJNGLKNG: -- --
cburg_tiger: -- --
bingobird: -- --
notchfire: -- --
Eric Halfabee: -- --
TxLonghorns04: -- --

Pre-flop:

hot_dog_321 folds. fish0612 folds. Eclipse2005
folds. DAYTRADR folds. DAJNGLKNG folds.
cburg_tiger folds. bingobird folds. notchfire
calls. Eric Halfabee folds. TxLonghorns04 raises to
1900. notchfire calls.

Flop (board: Kd 4c Qd):

TxLonghorns04 checks. notchfire bets 1500.
TxLonghorns04 goes all-in for 7930. notchfire folds.
TxLonghorns04 is returned 6430 (uncalled).

TxLonghorns04 opts to show Ks Qs.
TxLonghorns04 has Ks Qs Kd 4c Qd: two pair, kings and queens.


Hand #30345022-179 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
TxLonghorns04 wins 7500.
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i think my PF fold was a bit weak. Obviously if i limped in i would have hit my set and stacked someoned.

My main question is How should i have played this hand at this point in the tourney?

should i have raised to try and hit the blinds and antes? the only thing i was afraid of here was the sb and the bb, sb had twice my stack and bb had a stack similar to me, and we were almost in the money. So i didnt want to risk playing with them and have them playing back at me and forcing me out of the pot preflop. Also the fact that pocket 4s can easily be outplayed postflop.

But what should i have done here?

Personally, I don't feel that you were too tight with this fold. You're in early position, you've got a hand that cannot withstand a raise if you limp, and you're at a point in the tournament where lots of players are facing all-in or fold decisions. I'd play this hand for a raise near the CO, but I'd toss it from EP unless I had a much bigger stack and was at tight table that was afraid to mix it up with me.

If you limp and they raise or you don't hit you lose 200 - this will have no impact on your chances at all

If you limp and the set hits you could double up this will have a significant impact on your chance of making the money.


Providing you have the discipline to fold to a raise or a missed flop then limp away.

If you had a stack <3000 then I would think twice about the limp as it would be a significant chunk of your stack.

This is not obvious at all. UB doesn't have set decks, cards are not created until needed. There is no guarantee the flop would have been the same had you acted differently.

It is a matter of table conditions, what kind of raises have people been making?

1. You could stand a 3x raise from most of the players and still be +EV.

2. The shortest player ignoring the guy with 400 is at 17bbs, so there shouldn't be any crazy all-ins.

beavis... 5 out of the 10 players at the table have Ms under 10, and 3 have an M less than 5. These players are certainly in zones where they need to make a move.

Plus, even just a 3 BB raise requires Eclipse to put 10% of his stack in the pot before the flop, and then he has to play a small pair OOP for the remainder of the hand. That's not a great spot to be in.

I don't think it would be crazy to play this hand, but I'd probably look for a better opportunity to gamble given the middle stack size that Eclipse had than to take a flyer with a small pair from EP.

i guessing you folded because you were worried that you would be raised futher down the line if you tried to limp, which is what happened. It was a good fold, made for the right reasons. The four on the flop proves nothing, that only happens 12% of times, the majority of the other 88% of times you've just pissed some chips up the wall.

__________________
I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour and who then asks: Am I then a cheat? for he wants to perish.

actually, it can widthstand a raise if enough people call. usually if im getting 4:1 with a pp on a 3-5 bb raise, ill call, any position with a decent stack. (you are actually 7.5:1 to flop a set, but i usually only need 4:1, sometimes even 3:1, because of implied odds. you figure with 3/4 other people seeing a flop, when you flop a set somone has to have SOMEthing to get a bet in with, you have about a 30% chance to pair the flop and if 4 people get in theres a pretty good chance somone makes a good hand as well, 2 pair vs your set is beautiful, and would surely stack somone in a tournament.

the only way i dont limp here is if there has been ALOT of pf action and im not going to call an all in, raise+re raise, etc, or if im low stacked. if ive got a decent stack and theres a good chance there will be alot of people to see a flop, ill limp in.

in your position with your stack of 10k, your M is over 10, i think thats enough room to try to flop a set.

I dont care what position I am in when I flop a set, and no one thinks about M's in UB $5 tourneys.

I agree with your last statement MXP. I think we are pretty much on the same page. I would probably fold it, but I dont think limping is bad if the table has been pasive. You need to play the players, not yourself. React to how the table is playing, not how they should be playing.

ya, the table was pretty tight, but there was a lot of blind stealing going on. Id say about 70-80% of the time, someone raised PF. I guess thats the main reason i layed this hand down. For fear that someone would play back at me, or one of the blinds would (the sb possibly - who has double my stack) would make a move on me and come over the top, just because he has the stack to do so and the fact that im almost at the money.

most raises people made were about 3-4x BB