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Problems with discipline/calling when you think you're behind
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12-14-2005, 07:36 AM
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PokerForums God
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Luton, England
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Problems with discipline/calling when you think you're behind
This is probably a problem more related to my personlaity than my poker playing ability but I wondered whether anybody else has had a similar problem and if so how they have tried/managed to overcome it.
I am currently making profit over the past 2 month,s however I feel that I make some really stupid and really expensive mistakes, which is reducing my earnings.
Normally I am, if anything an over disciplined folder. Many times I have been in a 3 way pot and folded what would have turned out to be the winning hand. However I have also correctly folded a strong second best hand many times and usually I am happy with my play.
However every so often I will make an absolutely horrendous call, where I expect I am beaten and I really don't know why.
For example today I raised to 5BB holding KK and got 2 calls.
The board came Q 8 3 (2 spades)
I made a pot sized bet and got a call (Pot now about 48BB)
The next card out is an 8. My opponent waited until right at the end of his time and then moved all in (another 100BB). Normally I use that as a fairly reliable tell that the opponent is strong.
In this instance I would usually think well he shouldn't be doing that on AQ unless hes a maniac. The only overpair to the board other than my own is beating me anyway. If he was going to do it on the flush draw he would have done it on the turn, therefore he must have either pocket Q's or an 8.
However I called. Obviously I lost. This pot took my daily profit from around 180BB to 60BB.
Is this a common mistake in beginners or am I just an addicted gambler and sad loser destined to eventually throw away all my profit in such moments of madness?
Any avice appreciated.
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12-14-2005, 07:46 AM
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Check Raiser
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Arkansas
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You really needed to use your "fairly reliable tell"  . However, its your money, and it all goes towards whether you could've slept that night if you folded.
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12-14-2005, 08:03 AM
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Poker Professional
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Although I don't have as much experience as alot of people on here, my thoughts are you're possibly overvaluing your hands. If you are making good laydowns on a regular basis and folding weak hands PF, when you finally get a good hand you don't want to let it go (which is something I've been working on myself) and/or part of you might want to know if you've been bluffed off a pot or pushed off by the second best hand who was more aggressive. Which IMO is one of the toughest things about NL ring games, you lack any potential visual tells for those type of scenarios.
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12-14-2005, 08:15 AM
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PokerForums God
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I don't know whether its a type of tilt in that I am over disciplined and then let go.
For example earlier I had raised 4BB on QQ and again had 2 callers.
The board came down rainbow 8 6 5.
I bet out a 3/4 pot sized bet, which was raised and then cold called. I couldn't see that I was beating both players and folded. It turned out they were holding pocket 10s and A7 and I would have won the pot if I had stayed in. Obviousy heads up with the raiser I would not have folded but the player cold calling a raise concerned me and I had him on trips.
Was that a bad fold?
I don't feel angry or on tilt when these things happen as I feel given the information I had I played correctly, however maybe it builds up subconsciously until I throw all my chips in, in a worse situation.
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12-14-2005, 09:23 AM
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Stu Ungar
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if you have a feeling you need to go with it... what is the point of having poker instincts if you arent going to pay attention to them? if you think you are behind and dont have the odds to chase, then lay it down... whether you have top pair, an overpair, even the back end of a straight flush... if you know in your mind you are beat you have to have the dicipline to lay it down
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12-14-2005, 09:35 AM
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Check Raiser
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Arkansas
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However, only go with your feelings if they are winning you money
Sometimes it is good to go against your gut.
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Chuck Norris put the "laughter" in manslaughter..
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12-14-2005, 10:38 AM
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Poker Hustler
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco, CA
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This is where having a visible thought process helps. Rather than just go with your gut, think through the hand (out loud if online) as you did in your posting.
In a live game, think the words in your head. It's not something that comes naturally, but it allows you to get away from "gut instinct" and impulive decision making.
Of course, I still go on tilt when I stop doing it. And usually that's how I tell I'm on tilt.
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12-14-2005, 11:03 AM
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Check Raiser
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 773
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When you make a lay down and he doesn't show what he had- tell yourself you made the right play; don't second guess it. Say, "I know he had XX. I made a nice lay down." It sounds cheesy, but this reinforced confidence will help with the psychological aspect. It will also counteract that human nature of wanting to call just so you can see his cards. I tell myself, "I know what he has, I don't need to see it." In reality I may or may not have the right read, but it only hurts me if I second guess my laydown. It makes the future laydowns that you have trouble making that much easier.
However, like your examples, when the cards are shown and you would have been a winner, I take this approach. I can't wait to get a strong hand against him again - I can bet aggressive and get his chips.
Everybody throws away a winning hand from time to time. Just part of the game. Would you rather get rivered?
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12-14-2005, 11:03 AM
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River Rat
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London, UK.
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the other day in a .25/.50 NL game on pokerstars i was dealt KQs, and the flop came down 9TJ rainbow, i was 1st to act and made a small bet, about 1/3 of pot, one guy called, another raised, and i reraised, for about twice the pot...first caller folded, and the other called....turn was a J...he goes all in...and i knew he had the fullhouse, it was obvious....but for some reason i called him anyway, i managed to convince myself that he might have AJ...he didn't
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12-14-2005, 11:20 AM
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Poker Hustler
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WotaWaster
I don't know whether its a type of tilt in that I am over disciplined and then let go.
For example earlier I had raised 4BB on QQ and again had 2 callers.
The board came down rainbow 8 6 5.
I bet out a 3/4 pot sized bet, which was raised and then cold called. I couldn't see that I was beating both players and folded. It turned out they were holding pocket 10s and A7 and I would have won the pot if I had stayed in. Obviousy heads up with the raiser I would not have folded but the player cold calling a raise concerned me and I had him on trips.
Was that a bad fold?
I don't feel angry or on tilt when these things happen as I feel given the information I had I played correctly, however maybe it builds up subconsciously until I throw all my chips in, in a worse situation.
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Don't be afraid to reraise. You have to put someone on a straight draw here and the other may be defending his TP or overpair. If you had reraised if I were the TT I would have flinched a bit an probably called. If you give bad odds to the straight draw and he calls you can't do anything about that. Play your good hand. The worst thing that could have happened is that someone then reraised or went all in and at that point you could make your decision. Thats how I play NL. I also try not to get too into it early at the table when I have no player info.
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