This is what I said to Lusty in his response:

Let me correct you in this entire reply ok so here it goes so I can open your eyes:

on 3. Aug 2005 18:23 Lusty1 wrote:
> Hey Shawn,
>
> Just a thought here.
>
> "Poker is gambling" Poker is gambling if you DON'T know what you are doing, if you are an idiot who just runs into a casino sits down and starts playing you are in fact gambling. The sharks sitting at the table will instantly know you are a fish and you will get eaten.

. "Ask yourself, why do they call it gambling? You have a big
> chance to loose. You are taking a risk, a foolish one. In gambling, unless you are
> cheating, you have a certain amount of risk because you cannot control enough of the
> situation. the cost is to high."

while this may be true for certain games in the casinos, that idiots bet on like sports betting, pai gow poker, three card poker, hell even craps, not true for games that take into account strategy like black jack, and poker, you have a better change at these games where the odds ARE in your favor IF you know what you are doing than any other form of casino games.
>
" Why do you think the Casino's in Las Vegas make so much money? Millions upon
> Millions of people every year get a bug up there ass and think that they can beat the
> odds."

These same people don't take the time to aquire the skills REQUIRED to not lose their entire bankroll, these are the idiots. They are also doing it for entertainment, those of us who do it for profit are no where in the same ball park of the mindset these fish are. Ok thanks now moving along.

"Are you saying that you are any different than those millions of people. If
> you are saying that, then you are, indeed, a fool."

Yes I am saying I am different from these fish because unlike them I did my homework before venturing into this, I don't do anything unless I know the ins and outs of it, it's called being smart, being calculated. A fool? hardly a fool is the idiot who thinks he can make thousands off of roulette when the rest of us know better.

"Those who hold the cards have the advantage"

This statement right here shows me you know exactly SQUAT about poker. And hince why I had to break you're entire reply down so that other's can see you know exactly SQUAT about the game you are trying to school me in ok. Any fool can play a pocket pair of aces and try to make money off it, it's when you are holding a hand like 4 8 off suit and you get the guy you are heads up against to make the incorrect decision like folding his pocket tens when the flop clearly is stating other wise but since he is an observant player and knows you to be a pretty solid aggressive type who will raise with anything he doesn't want to chance his whole stack on a measly pair of pocket tens. And that's poker in a nutshell, getting inside your opponent's head to make him make incorrect decisions, he does you profit period, no cards involved buddy so you don't know jack of what you speak, it's playing the player and long as I know how to play people (some thing I've done all my life just ask Tim of my past) I have the advantage when it comes to psychology.


"As for the girl you spoke of (the coworker) She will hold her own cards. She may
> not see that yet, but she will. School, direction and the desire to beable to
> control your future is something that to many of us lack. "

Who said I didn't possess these qualities as well? You? You don't know me bub.
>
"All I'm trying to say to you, buddy, is that in cards, while you may think you can
> outsmart the odds, you cannot. Eventually, they will catch up to you. These are
> some of the reasons that gambling is illegal in many jurisdictions.
>
> Have you ever gone to a horse racing track and looked around? Have you seen the
> people who can barely dress themselves., the ones who you know are spending money
> they really can't afford? Is that how you want to be? A Bum. I thought you were
> smarter than that.
>
> If you think you can make money at cards, you're wrong! Wake up!
>
> Gambling is also very addicting, much like smoking, booze, drugs or porn. None of
> those things are very good for you, and you know it. What makes Gambling any diff?
> Nothing, it is no different. the reason all of these things are addicting is
> because they are easy, they provide instant gratification with the promise of some
> great reward at the end. That reward is never actuated.
>
> Just a thought, Shawn.
>
> Maybe you should try to do things because they are hard, not because they are easy.
> Counting cards is to easy, at first, then you loose."


As for the rest of this babble all I will say is two words " Bankroll Management" you go look that up, read about it, understand it, then retrack your statement so you don't sound so assasine to those of us who know what we are talking about

OK thanks.

I think they've put you on tilt.

Well some of what I wrote was slightly tongue in cheek....but in fact I wasn't talking about about single hands. I was talking about whole tournaments! When you've spent 3 hours in front of a screen and you've just beaten 150 others to a huge wad of cash....don't you leap around your room like an idiot? When you get busted out on the river 1 place off the money, by some knob who should have folded long ago......don't you tear your hair out and go crazy?

I watch the WSOP, watching poker was another of the many things that ended up pissing her off! When someone wins the WSOP they seem pretty excited to me. And when someone gets interviewed after a really bad beat, they can seem pretty pissed off.

I would lose it if I won the WSOP. I would jump around like a lunatic, wild-eyed and drooling, shouting 'WSOP WSOP FUCKIN WOW!!'

I'd probably be carted off by men in white coats. But I would be so happy!

That's funny because I never tilt at the table, so maybe they have, is this what it feels like? not getting through to those less inclined to understand something so simple like poker vs gambling?

ShanwE, I think the biggest slam-dunk argument you have against your debater is that, for every casino game, you are playing against the house, who does indeed have the odds in their favor. In poker, you're not playing against the house. You're playing a strategy game against other players, NOT AGAINST THE HOUSE. Hence, IN THE LONG RUN, the best strategists will indeed be profitable. VS. the house as opposed to VS. other shlubs is such a crucial difference. You touched on it, but I would jam it down their throats.

Mike Caro says the only games worth playing are poker, blackjack, and sports betting, because those are the only games were strategy/doing your homework can assure you of profitibility over long term. I thought I'd throw that out there...the house does a very good job of setting the best lines possible to encourage action on both sides of a sports bet, but at the end of the day, if you go one way on a sports/team bet or another, one will be right, and one that you can make quite an educated pick on. So I would remove your dismissal of sports betting.

__________________
"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die." -Malachy McCourt

Poker is gambling because you are wagering on an unknown outcome.

Casinos make money because the games are designed to favore them, they are "rigged" or "fixed", or they are paid for providing the place to play. Every bet is +EV for the house. In-fact, a casino is the perfect example of how poker can be beatable if you only make +EV bets. Casinos lose millions of bets, but they win more. They don't sweat the payouts.

Horse racing and sport wagering are also beatable forms of gambling.

Anyone know if this is true? I understand his point, but I'd imagine somewhere in the casino you could find a neutral EV bet, anywhere!?

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

The only exception I can think of is a bet that incurs a problem that costs the casino(player destroys room, needs security, etc). What does it matter anyway?

I thought you taking odds in craps is the only bet in the casino they don't have an edge on.

Blackjack may be a place. From what I read on 2+2, casino's can't have table games where they can lose by law in Nevada.