omaha 8

Steve-O · #1 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 08:12 PM

I have about 22,000 hands in PT for O8 now, interesting results.

winning 10 BB/100 at full tables, 4 at 6 max. although 15K of the hands are at 6 max.

vpip 18.83 at full tables 25.66 at 6 max

preflop raise 4.45 at full tables 7.07 at 6 max

positionally I'm shocked, I'm actually +.07 from the SB (my button EV is only +.09), -.07 from the BB. my most profitable position just like in PT hold em is under the gun +.60. maybe I should play tighter from everywhere???? I'm losing from the cutoff and 1 before the cutoff, -.04 and -.03 respectively. this is kind of backing up my beliefs that 234X and A45K type hands are not overly profitable, I don't play these hands up front or from MP and they are +.12 to +.29 with my UTG at +.60.

when I remove the 6 max table stats I'm losing from the last 3 spots! Definetly should play tighter from there.

I've also been tinkering with the auto rate stats and have come up with a couple that seem to be pretty accurate

Strong player (the money bag) VPIP less than 28, raise preflop greater than 3, BB/100 greater than 3
.....4 people have found there way into this grouping and I agree that they belong there, except maybe myself!

average player on the bad side, vpip greater than 40, went to showdown greater than 25, amount won less than 0

average player on the good side, vpip greater than 28, preflop raise between 1-4, aggression factor greater than 1. everyone who fit this description is right around break even or a slight winner/loser

just a couple ratings I've been tinkering with, also there is 1 player that I'm not sure if he is a cheat or not??? vpip over 60, preflop raise over 30, and he's winning 15 BB/100 over 1500 hands?????? small sample but I know this guy from before and was always curious as to his winning so this is not a new thing, I just have the stats to back it up now.

I haven't been able to detect any collusion between him and others but he USUALLY is at the 6 max tables (red flag) I'm going to pour over some hand histories tonight and see what i come up with. I know he changed his screenname so his buddy(s) at the table might be doing the same, and when I called him on the screenname change a few months back he quickly left. Like I wouldn't recognize his play! I don't like that party lets you change once every 6 months.

Marm · #2 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 08:23 PM

YOu using the new PTO?

How are you liking it if you are?

And you do know that it is a timed Beta version, not a fixed hand amount, so that when you hit your time limit, you need to reinstall the Beta, and reload your HH's. eventually when the commercial verison is released, You woint be able to reload the beta.

Steve-O · #3 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 08:33 PM

i have a bunch of hand histories from party stored, party does this automatically now.

I like it, I actually like it more than the hold em one.

Marm · #4 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 08:36 PM

Been hearing about lotso porblem with the filters.. any?

the alex · #5 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 08:56 PM

PT has asked me to make 2nd and 3rd attempts at imports. No problems, though. Your positional differences don't surprise me, Steve. A large portion of my profits come from the CO and UTG. CO is 1st- UTG: 2nd as in HE.

I'm playing PLO, not limit and it's Hi, so UTG limp-raises are very effective in PLO and I do it a lot, just as CO raises as you can knock the button and the blinds off the hand..

What surprised me was you VPIP. I have a little over 1k LO8 hands and my VPIP is a little over 26%. In PLO, I'm at 23%. I know Red doesn't play PLO much, but he has had success playing over 30%. (Red, you really need to play more Omaha.) We had a misunderstanding in an earlier thread about starting hands.

The 4 card aspect really makes it easier for a 40% player to make money in Omaha than in HE depending on how they play the hands. Look at people with 2k+ hands in HE and Omaha. You'll notice that more of those people make profits in Omaha than HE. Most still lose money and that this what really matters, but as a game observation, it is quite interesting when you look at it.

Steve-O · #6 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 09:06 PM

yeah at a 6 max table I'm around 26%. but at a full table those 23 hands that i play at 6 max tables are in the muck when there is over an 80% chance of an A2 or A3. shorthanded I'll play 234 or 235 or 2367 even 3345 but at a full table straight to the muck.

with 10BB/100 I'm going to go back to 4 1/2 tables at a time in the morning and 2/4 at night (for traffic and game reasons) instead of hold em. My assumption is it will drop to 7-8 since I only have 5K hands logged at full tables 10 BB/100 is pushing the upper limits.

Personally I don't think there is a better Omaha8 player than myself, sounds conceited but this is really my game. It's one of those games that people can argue about the correct way to play theoretically until they are blue in the face and get nowhere. I think I have the proper way to play this game down to a tee depending on game conditions.

the alex · #7 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 09:30 PM

Are you mucking your hi 4 card wraps? Your pot quantity isn't high with them, but your scooping power is the best w/o a lo draw. I would think that in loose/passive games, limping with these late would be +EV. You can get away with being ds a lot more in O8 as well if you're playing PL as you can knock out backdoor lo draws easier. I'm not much of a PLO8 player, though. If I'm gonna play and HL game, I'll play Stud.

Steve-O · #8 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 09:37 PM

I'm not a fan of TJQK rainbow or TJQA type hands, I play them in multiway pots preferably for 1 bet but I'll call 2 cold if there are 4 or 5 opponents. and I'l play 4 cards 9-K in 1 bet multiway pots.

I like KKQJ type hands much more as long as the pair is Queens or Kings, a hand like JJQK i would put in the above category, actually I prefer KK25 double suited type hands to most 4 card high hands.

I prefer my high card hands without an Ace unless it is suited.

most of these hands even the 9-K wraps will show a profit in the long run as long as you play them OK after the flop.

if I have TJQK and the flop is 789 with 2 of a suit I'm gone if someone bets.

the alex · #9 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O

I like KKQJ type hands much more as long as the pair is Queens or Kings, a hand like JJQK i would put in the above category, actually I prefer KK25 double suited type hands to most 4 card high hands.

I would agree with this as a no-brainer along with the hi hands not having an Ace. An Ace kills a 3 hi card hand because of the brick wall in front of it. I feel this way in Omaha Hi as well. I'd rather have KJT9 than AQJT in PLO. that's why I like the A2JT in O8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O

most of these hands even the 9-K wraps will show a profit in the long run as long as you play them OK after the flop.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-0

if I have TJQK and the flop is 789 with 2 of a suit I'm gone if someone bets.

Then don't play it at all. I agree that these are good O8 hands only multiway, but that's because you can afford to bet hard on these flops and still make a profit when people hit their lo or their flush. Not to mention, the more people are in a hand, the more lo cards are dead in the hole. That's AJ is better HU on the button in HE than multiway in the middle. You know you're playing the A as a kicker because there are dead Aces out there.

You are only a 2:1 dog to scoop, but you have the best chance to scoop as 2:1 at at least half the pot. 3:2 if someone has a set. If you playing this at all, you better have the odds to justify playing this hand through in the first place, so why fold?

Steve-O · #10 (**permalink**) 02-26-2005, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Then don't play it at all. I agree that these are good O8 hands only multiway, but that's because you can afford to bet hard on these flops and still make a profit when people hit their lo or their flush. Not to mention, the more people are in a hand, the more lo cards are dead in the hole. That's AJ is better HU on the button in HE than multiway in the middle. You know you're playing the A as a kicker because there are dead Aces out there.

You are only a 2:1 dog to scoop, but you have the best chance to scoop as 2:1 at at least half the pot. 3:2 if someone has a set. If you playing this at all, you better have the odds to justify playing this hand through in the first place, so why fold?

I don't really understand what you are saying here? how can i bet hard in a limit game???? 2 low cards, 2 high low cards so it is likely that 2 or more players combined have an uncounterfeitable low, any paired card or suited card kills you. simple fold. the only time I will play a high only hand if 2 low cars flop is if I have top set or in the above situaution if I had the nut flush draw to go with my flopped straight.

I don't justify playing a hand through til the end because i called preflop, I get involves in pots not committed to them. "the difference between involvement and commitment is like a ham and eggs breakfast, the chicken was involved the pig was committed."

Quote:

I would agree with this as a no-brainer along with the hi hands not having an Ace. An Ace kills a 3 hi card hand because of the brick wall in front of it. I feel this way in Omaha Hi as well. I'd rather have KJT9 than AQJT in PLO. that's why I like the A2JT in O8.

not so much because it has a brick wall but because when you hit 2 pair with the Ace one of your cards is a low card, big difference between a flop of AQ5 and KQ5.

this is similar to the reason I prefer A267 to A2KQ, when I hit my low I have a much better chance to hit 2 pair or a straight with the 67 to go with my nut low. A2KQ is a hand thats running in 2 different directions, it gets a good reputation because the original Omaha 8 literature is geared toward tighter games where you could win heads up with a pair of aces with a better kicker.

that more low cards myth is like saying that if 7 people call preflop in hold em an Ace is unlikely to come on the flop.