ok, most people use a chart or some other guideline to decide what to play and which position to play it from.

I do this also but ONLY when I am opening the pot. Otherwise I make my decisions by using all the information available to me, obviously the better your position the better decision you will be able to make.

this does not mean you neccassarilly play looser from late position (as most people think), it means you will be capable of making more informed decisions from late position thus allowing you to play marginal hands BETTER from late position than you can from early position.

I'm going to start with AX suited (A2-A9). In my opinion this hand is grossly misplayed. The Ace is a mirage card, you think you are seeing water in the desert but you are getting salt water. Playing this hand for the Ace is insane, if you hit only top pair and recieve any action you are playing for 1/2 the pot or less.

this hand is played for it's flush potential, it's pair potential which can also win is secondary, where a hand like AK suited is played for it's pair potential the flush being secondary.

When you play a hand for draw potential you want as many opponents as possible, you are drawing to the nut flush after all, you want to invite J8s and 45s into the pot, so you get payed off when you hit. therefor this hand should never be raised to trim the field (an exception to this is if you are opening the pot from late position). the opposite is true of AK suited since your primary reason for playing it is the pair potential you do not mind losing opponents but want to force the ones who stick around to play for 2 bets.

Now we'll get into the maths, The flops you are really looking for are a made hand of 2 pair or better, 6% chance of occuring, or a flush draw, 11% chance of occuring. As you can see this hand isn't very good, you will only be comfortable with the flop 17% of the time (even less when the board pairs and you have the flush draw or 1 of your pair is on the board). so less than 1 time in 5 you will like the flop, keep in mind this does not mean you will win 1 time in 5.

In my mind this hand is only playable when you will have 4 or more opponents. When will you know if there will be 4 or more opponents? when you are in middle or late position.

This is also a hand that beginning players will have trouble laying down after the flop when they hit a pair of aces and can cost you many bets when you call all the way. If you have trouble laying down top pair weak kicker when others bet at the pot you should avoid these hands, they will have a -EV for you.

The best kind of opponent for this hand is one who will call all the way even when he knows you made a flush (you have all seen this type) if there are a couple of players like this in the game this hands value has gone up. likewise if your opponents are capable of laying down a hand like top pair good kicker this hand will lose a little bit of value.

This hand plays well in loose passive games and can usually be played from any position in an unraised pot (because in loose passive games you can almost certainly expect 4 opponents), and is playable if the above circumstances are met in loose aggressive games, although i do not reccomend calling raises with this hand unless you have 5 or more opponents since most of your pair potential is now gone.

This hand is death in tight games whether they are passive or aggressive.

If multiple players(4+) have limped I like to raise from late position with AX suited, not only for value if you hit but for the free card potential if say 1 of your suit hits or you pair 1 card, you will now be able to see the turn for free.

OK guys have at it.

Uh... basic?

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

aren't all decisions preflop in hold em basic?

Just doing a little explanation of the why's.

Bonch you don't think a book explaining how and why to choose your starting hands should be basic?

basically I want you to be able to decide if the hand is playable or not in your current situation, not play it because a chart says AX suited is playable from late position.

by looking at the number of opponents, the action in front of you, the game conditions, the players in the game, along with your hand and your position you should be able to decide what to do on your own.

If of course you know the math and your chances of hitting the flop.

This thread is suffering from the bonching effect.


sorry Steve, I am too tired right now, I will revisit this tomorrw.

stfu

__________________
“There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about.” - John von Neumann

I almost play them like a low pocket pair. It's either hit, or fold. I never did the math, but 1/5 seems pretty good -- better than 1/8 for PP-->set.

I don't know how this play is, but what about playing Axs it has been folded to you on the button or SB. You will most likely have a heads-up situation which would make the ace very valuable regardless of kicker, no? Could this possibly be an advisable play?

BTW, calling with this in any position on .5/1 Party is +EV I believe.

Axs is probably one of my favourite hands in limit, because you ccan really only misplay it PF. I mean if you got a brain you can dump if the heat is turned on and you flop tpnk, and if there is no reasonable draw for you, ez fold. It's also a great money maker on these juiced up pots with multiple calling stations *drools*.

I agree that 5:1 PF is pretty sweet, although on PP, you can get better .

Regarding charts... I've never used them, and likely never will. in HPFAP the chart was for limit so i ignored it... since then I've pretty much concluded that if you're playing the hand in such a way because the chart said so, you're playing it for the wrong reasons. The right reasons are like what you've listed here. More likely to understand the stuff if it's explained in words than shown on a stupid chart. --- Too often I read 2+2 micro threads where, instead of giving their own arguements, they say, "Well Lee Jones says, or Miller says..."

Basically I want the book not only to tell me what is the best line/move/decision, but to also explain to me why it's the best. Convince me .

I actually saw a thread that went like this.

"I open raise with aqo, someone reraises, I fold."
"Why'd you fold to the 3 bet?"
"Lee Jones says to fold after a reraise with aqo."
"Uhhh no he doesn't."
"You sure? I am reading it right here... says fold."
"He says told if it has been raised and reraised BEFORE it's your turn to act."
"Oh, ok that would make more sense."

Of course this is not word for word, but amazingly close.

Cheers,

Mike

the only difference with Axs and a pocket pair is that when you hit the flop with a pocket pair you have a strong made hand. when you hit it with AXs you usually are drawing (11%) and have a strong made hand, but never as strong as a set (6%).

Any feedback on my thoughts on when it's a haeds-up situation?