GA Post

Marm · #1 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 02:14 AM

Found this on 2+2 (Sorry Kid), most of you have already seen this, some haven't. Kinda moving in a way. I pretty much feel the same as this anynomous author. But I do think it needs to be said, and if one of us who knows of somevody who needs the help, doesn't hesitate, either forward them this letter, or tell them directly. Things like this, a community taking care of itself, can only help our hobby/profession.

Quote:

Dear Compulsive Gambler,

If you find this post on the Psychology forums of twoplustwo.com, then you are probably not a compulsive gambler. This letter will likely not reach the right audience; in the instance that you are a compulsive gambler and happen upon this letter, my preaching will probably fall on deaf ears. Additionally, I am a fairly regular poster on these boards and do not want to come across as some kind of hero for saying what I have to say. It is for these reasons that I have debated for over a week as to whether or not I should even bother writing this letter.

Even so, I decided today to write and post this letter for a number of reasons. One, I would like to hear from my fellow poker players as to how I should react when I encounter you, the compulsive gambler, at the poker table. Two, I believe it possible albeit highly unlikely that you will find this letter and pay attention to its contents. Three, I just need to get this out in the open. Still, I don’t want to seem like someone who thinks he should be canonized; hence, I have created a new account and posted anonymously.

You, the Compulsive Gambler, have a disease. Your sickness is one whose symptoms are not easily recognized by those who do not know you well.

In the casino, you hide in plain sight. You recklessly shovel around money and chips. You become elated when you when, and you get upset when you lose. It is unfortunate that many non-addicted, clueless gamblers exhibit the same behavior; thus, these traits do not distinguish you from the general casino population. What sets you apart from other casino patrons is your emotional attachment to your wins and losses. When you win, you feel the urge to keep playing as long as possible and win more. When you lose, you can’t wait to get your chips back into play in hopes of getting even. Odds notwithstanding, this is how you behave.

At the poker table, you bet and raise haphazardly and chase improbably draws in the hope of catching that miracle card. Again, this is generally indicative of poor poker play and not of addiction. By most estimates, your disease affects about five percent of the world’s population. Any observant poker player will tell you that far more than five percent of poker players exhibit poor poker skills. Therefore, when I see you bet, raise, and reraise with hopeless cards, I have no reason to assume that you are a compulsive gambler.

I am sure that I have played poker with you on a number of occasions during my short 15-month playing career. Because of the reasons mentioned above, I probably assumed that you were just a poor poker player and not an addict. However, I know that I played poker with you, the compulsive gambler, last weekend.

On Saturday, January 1, 2005, you played in my $5-$10 game at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City. You were seated in Seat 9. When I arrived at the table, you had a massive stack of chips. An acquaintance pointed to you and said; “That guy is a total fish. He’s plain crazy.” I thought to myself “Good, a big fish at the table. Maybe he will line my pockets tonight.”

In less than an hour, I relieved you of your entire stack and more. You bought in repeatedly and continued to play total trash. On occasion you won big pots by catching miracle draws, but you just couldn’t hold onto the money. In four hours’ time, you probably dumped over a thousand dollars onto the table.

Near the end of the fourth hour, you bought in yet again and managed to lose almost all of your buy-in on a single hand. You then pulled out a thick wad of bills. “YES!” I thought to myself, “He’s buying in again!” Then I noticed something strange: the thick wad of bills that you had put on the table consisted not of large bills but of dollar bills. You bought in for your last $25 or so and pissed it away on the next hand.

Even so, I still had no idea that you are were a compulsive gambler. A few minutes later, however, I saw you holding an ATM card in your hand and talking to the floor lady. I could not hear the conversation, but I could see that the floor lady was shaking her head, apparently denying whatever you had requested. Then I noticed that the card in your hand looked not like an ATM card but a Diner’s Club card. A quick glance at my own seldom used Diner’s Club card confirmed this. That’s when it came clear to me what had happened.

You had lost all of the money that you brought to the casino. You had gone to the ATM machine at least once during my time at the table; after one of your numerous bust-outs, you left the table for roughly 10 minutes and later returned with a handful of bills. You lost that money, and then proceeded to piddle away your last few dollars.

You next turned to your credit card. Most people use Diner’s Club mainly for the dining and travel privileges, so I am willing to bet that you had already tapped out at least one other major credit card. You evidently had some problem in getting a cash advance and had turned to the floor lady for help. Either the Taj Mahal does not take Diner’s Club or the floor lady knew that you had already maxed out your credit, because she denied your request.

I am ashamed to admit that I was disappointed that you could not get more money. Obviously you could not afford to lose the money that I took from you, but at the time it did not bother me. I now feel like a total jackass for my lack of sympathy.

The next day, I felt very guilty about what had happened. Then again, what could I have done? I did not realize that you are compulsive while we were at the table together. If I had realized this, then I would have left the table, but someone else would have taken my seat and you still would have lost all your money. If I had given you the money back, then you would have just wasted it on more poor poker play or on some desperation bet on the roulette wheel. You would have lost the money no matter what I did, but I still felt awful.

The silver lining to this cloud is that I have initiated the process of setting up a regular matching grant contribution for Gambler’s Anonymous through my employer. That way, when I send GA the money that you lost to me, my employer will match the donation.

My friend, I do not want to win your grocery money. I only want to win the portion of your disposable income that you have responsibly set aside for poker and entertainment. Most of my poker playing brethren probably feel the same way; however, I can guarantee that a small percentage of scumbag players would feel no remorse at all about taking your every dime. The casino doesn’t care either; if you lose all of your money at craps or blackjack then the casino will gladly take your money and then invite you back to spend even more. Industry executives may pay lip service to responsible gaming, but the reality is different.

You have a problem and you need help. Contact Gambler’s Anonymous so that you may get the help that you need.

In New Jersey, call (877) 994 2465
In the New York City area, call (877) 664-2469
In the Philadelphia area, call (215) 468-1991
In Delaware, call (302) 984-2277

Or visit the website at http://www.gamblersanonymous.org

You may also contact the Council on Compulsive Gambling at 1-800-GAMBLER.

My friend, get help before you get in too deep.

KiD[ReD] · #2 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 03:09 AM

They shouldn't be wasting their time on the poker sites. Go hand out flyers to the people playing roulette at casino's instead.

Diggler · #3 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 05:58 AM

Hmmm....I disagree-Both methods would work...seeing as how this person in particular prolly nly plays IRL, very thoughtful though-I mean, it seems genuine. I have a few friends like that, and that's why when i run my tourneys I run a cap on rebuys to ensure those few don't give me their phone bill payment, or gas bill payment.

=(

KiD[ReD] · #4 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 06:21 AM

Anyhow, I don't want obsessive gamblers to see this thread... we need these people to take money from!

Girevik · #5 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KiD[ReD]

Anyhow, I don't want obsessive gamblers to see this thread... we need these people to take money from!

Damn, joke or not that's just cold. While I don't belive gambling is a "disease", I sure don't want to take some guy's grocery money because he can't control himself and have his family go hungry.

Steve-O · #6 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 10:24 AM

It's from having an addictive personality, if they didn't gamble it would be drugs or booze or whatever.

You shouldn't coddle or pity people because they lack self control. I don't feel sorry for anyone who destroys their life because of gambling, or drugs or alcohol for that matter, this is their problem.

Just my opinion.

geerussell · #7 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 10:40 AM

Quote:

One, I would like to hear from my fellow poker players as to how I should react when I encounter you, the compulsive gambler, at the poker table.

...

I can guarantee that a small percentage of scumbag players would feel no remorse at all about taking your every dime.

Ok, maybe I'm the only scumbag here or maybe I'm just the only person who'd admit it. If someone is hell-bent on getting broke, better his chips go to me than the next guy.

I'm not without sympathy. If I encounter a CG before he sits down or after he gets up I'd offer a kind word or a GA phone number or maybe even cab fare--but probably not since he'd probably just take that back to the tables and bet it.

For my actions at the table though, the only remorse I'd ever have is over leaving with less money than I sat down with.

Beavis68 · #8 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 10:42 AM

it is their problem, but I still feel sorry for them. And usually they damage more than just themselves.

But it is more than just gambling and drugs, it is clubs, clothes, cars houses, movies........

People have plenty of ways to waste their money.

I actually know one guy that is a compulsive gambler, horses, sports, poker, whatever. You won't come across many of these people at .50/1.00 games or even 2/4 or 3/6. These guys are action junkies and they want to push big piles of chips around even if it is with a mouse click. The guy lost his house, he and his family are living in an apartment. But he gets horse racing beamed to his house by satelitte and bets online. I guess you are right steve, I don't pity him, I despise him.

I have another friend who's SnG play I was tracking for a while, he had an average profit of $24 per $100+9 SnGs on Party and $10 profit on $200+15s.

But the guy insisted on playing the 200s even though he was just barely above break-even. He had no concept of BR management or maximizing return, he wanted to win the biggest prize - no matter how much it cost.

Girevik · #9 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O

It's from having an addictive personality, if they didn't gamble it would be drugs or booze or whatever.

You shouldn't coddle or pity people because they lack self control. I don't feel sorry for anyone who destroys their life because of gambling, or drugs or alcohol for that matter, this is their problem.

Just my opinion.

If it were just them, I'd agree. Unfortunately they often times have families. If they want to ruin thier own lives, that's their business, but when there and kids involved it's a different story.

Shade · #10 (**permalink**) 01-12-2005, 11:31 AM

This post combined with Burtman's article on Pokerpages last month really frames a good morality sort of issue for those of us who play poker. (Burtman's article, for those who didn't see it, dealt with an individual who routinely dropped thousands in a local country club game and who ultimately committed suicide) Do we as poker players have any sort of moral obligation (either as players or as human beings) to others who choose to participate in our game/hobby/interest?

Speaking from a poker-as-business mentality (as opposed to poker as recreation done "for fun"), I don't think it qualifies me as a scumbag if I take, through skill, that which is offered to me. Am I a scumbag if I notice that you're selling a $300 comic book for 10 cents at your rummage sale and quickly hand you a dime?

One of the first "lessons" -- actually it was closer to a scolding -- that I received at a poker table came after I held back a bet on a guy who was down on his luck that night. I had the nut hand...I could've raised him and grabbed a few more bucks, but I opted not to because he was clearly down and he'd been one of the more pleasant conversationalists at the table that night. Later, a friend pulled me aside to say that you never, ever hold back at the table. No softplaying. You play your A-game and take every dime you can get when you get it, because there's a table full of people who damn sure are looking to do the same to you. I often think back to that scene when I hear that poker quote where someone says not only would they bleed their mother if she sat down at the table, but he'd check-raise her as well.

When I sit at a table with strangers, I assume that, like me, they all made the conscious decision to go there and accept the risks which that decision entails. If they fill up at the ATM during the course of play, who am I to invade their personal life and question if that's discretionary income or next month's mortgage payment -- they've made the decision.

If its a friend and I notice they're running down, I might grab them on the aside and ask if now's the best time to get back in or suggest they call it a night. If they choose to listen, great. If not, they've made a conscious choice. If I'm running the game, I can intercede and refuse to buy him in, but if I'm a patron at the casino, I don't even have that option.

And, really, that's not so different from any other addictive action either. Am I a scumbag because I allow my friend to purchase cigarettes? No. I can warn him about smoking. I can point out the freaking label that lists all the nasty stuff that smoking causes, but if he chooses to do it...his choice, his personal decision. The fact that I'm "taking" his money (via the sin tax on cigs, which then gets spent on state projects that non-smokers like myself benefit from) isn't my issue.

Burtman's article gets into a grayer area because there, they were all friends, or at the least acquaintances, who knew, to some degree, the habits of the eventual suicide victim. But, still...if a junkie wants a fix, they're going to find a fix.

Bottom line...I might have a moral obligation out of friendship to those I know to intercede on their behalf if I notice dangerous behavior. To the total stranger though, who am I to question where the money comes from that he's laying on the table? I'm at my place of "business" and knew the risks when I sat down and bought in. I trust he did to, because he made the same conscious decision that I did.

Just my two cents.