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Go Back PokerForums.org > General > General Poker Discussion > Zero Sum and The effects of Rake.

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Old 03-18-2006, 11:42 AM
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Default Zero Sum and The effects of Rake.

Looking to do my first real analysis PAPro, I decided the simplest sim I can do would be a study on the effects of rake on a zero sum table. This was to be a very simple test, just to see how much money was left on a Limit table after all but one player had busted.

I set up a standard Low Limit ring game, $.5/$1 Blinds with a standard PokerStars Rake. 9 Players were at this table each with $50, for a total of $450 dollars in play. There were to be no rebuys and no new players would sit, so ignoring rake, this was truly a Zero Sum game. I used the normal randon distribution of bots to fill this game, to best simulate a normal SSH game.

So I started the game and let it run. 3,333 hands later we had a clear winner, Fred. Fred had almost tripled up for a grand total of $145.75. Thats $304.25 that went to the house, or 67.6% of the money in play. That works out to only $0.091 per hand.

Looking at Fred's Play, He looks to be a LAA player with 49% hands played (Not VP$IP mind you), 16% Pre-Flop Raise, 1.9 Aggression, and 53% Went to showdown and Won money (This seems to be something akin, but not the same as, WSD and W$SD) Overall. But with 7 or more players he is 41%/11%/1.4/49%, putting him somewhere between LAA and LAP. But obviously he is a fish that was getting lucky. As you can see on the following graph, his stack continued to grow fairly well (RED LINE), at a win rate of 4.37bb/100. But, the Blu line indicates the relative strength of his preflop cards, which is showing that he had superior hands dealt to him the majority of the session. The Green line shows the overall luck factor (what everybodie's final hand would have been), and while this indicates he wasn't flopping as well as everybody else, His superior cards were winning since the winning hands had probably already folded.



While this little study doesn't represent anything new or earthshaking, it does give a little insight into some of the features Of PAPro. It also shows that fresh blood at a table is critical for the games survival, long term and short.

If the same set of players remain at a table for a long period of time, then the house's edge over the good players' ability to take money from the weaker players grows. Look at it this way, each player has a certain EV vs another player. Good aggressive players have a huge edge over the semi-loose, semi-aggressive players, but not as much over the almost as good players, and the total randomness of the true guppies makes them hard to keep a good EV. You may even have a -EV vs certain players, either they are just better than you, or you can't adjust to their game. These are small edges vs each player that add upto your expected Win rate for that session. If this EWR is less than the expected effect of rake, you will end up a losing player. The introduction of more fish to the table will add new money to the table and it will up your expected win rate.
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Old 03-18-2006, 12:16 PM
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Marm, run that same sim with a Super tight/aggressive player at the table. It will show why tight is not only the correct strategy but how it helps you in a raked game
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Old 03-18-2006, 12:17 PM
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Got a name on Particular Bot?
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Old 03-18-2006, 12:19 PM
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I actually think running the same sim will not show this.

But running it with a Stack of $300 will. 300 big bets anyone?

I'm just wondering if the TAA will adjust to SH play....
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Old 03-18-2006, 12:25 PM
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One of the bots has a tightness adjuster, can't recall which one.

I'm gonna go fool around with PAPro myself for a bit
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Old 03-18-2006, 12:54 PM
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What is PAPro?
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Old 03-18-2006, 01:19 PM
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Default Ring v. S&G and the rake debate

I found this link: Rake Compared and it brought me to think about something.

If one is a break even player, you have to at least to win the rake for a given 100 BB according to the data in the link above. So what about S&G's? How much do you have to be ITM and what distribution of ITM to break even to the rake? Assume an equal number of 1st,2nd,3rd... you will have to be in the money 34% of the time to at least win the money lost to rake. If there was no rake it would be 30% ITM.

Let's compare the stakes 1/2 limit you need about 600 for a BR. S&G's, your in the 20+2 to 30+3 range. Assuming you can make to near the end of a lot of the S&G your rake/100 hands approaches that of the ring games. On average, you will be slightly below the ring game raked amount (average is about $4/100 hands see link). Are you following? It appears that if you are break even player, you would want to play the S&G's based solely on a rake perspective. Does this make sense?

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Old 03-18-2006, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishodeath
What is PAPro?
Poker Acadmey Pro.
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