So my question is; Should online poker rooms burn three cards a hand (flop, turn, & river?) When it's done at a casino, to prevent cheating, it's the standard, while on line, when there is no need for this protection, it's not. This appears to be a significant difference, perhaps not from the players' perspective for statistical analysis, but it affects potential outcomes.

For example; In a heads-up game at a casino where two players have a straight, one has a king high and the other ace high, but two of the other aces were dealt to players and one was buried, then the king high cannot tie. On-line he could, as the last ace would be in the "virtual deck." (exclude the potential for flush in this example)

Burning cards appears to impact (reduce) potential outcomes and this may sway any given hand. It looks like on-line poker is a different game than the casino version.

A statistical analysis would be interesting as well.

My first post and a burning question.

Hello All!

no statistical analysis is needed. We don't know what the burn cards are at the casino. Each card has an equal chance of being burned. It doesn't affect the odds of our play until we know for certainty what card was burned.

Welcome to the forum.

They burn cards at the casino to prove that the dealer is not cheating. What would be the point of burning cards online? If they were cheating you, it's not like you would know if they had the burn card feature. They could just do whatever they wanted. You just have to trust the poker site.

It's true that from a players perspective the probabilities are based on a 52 card deck, for both on-line and casino situations, however in a casino there are three cards that will never see play, not so on-line. Example; after all cards are dealt to a ten person table at a casino (20 to the players, 5 to the table, and three to the burn pile) there are twenty four cards left in the deck, while at a virtual table (20 to the players, 5 to the table, and 0 are burned) there are 27 cards left in the virtual deck. So in these scenarios;

Before cards are dealt = 52 cards in deck (virtual & on-line decks are equal)
After cards are dealt = 32 cards in deck (virtual & on-line decks are equal)
After flop = 29 cards in the virtual deck & 28 in the casino deck (at this point there is one more card in the virtual deck that can come into play, than in the casino deck)
After the turn = 28 cards in the virtual deck & 26 in the casino deck (now there are two cards in the virtual deck that may come into play, that would not in a casino)
After the river = 27 cards in the virtual deck & 24 in the casino deck (finally, three virtual cards may come into play, that would not in a casino)

The difference between the possibility of a card entering play vs. a card never seeing play is significant. Further, if we look at the round of betting during each stage (excluding preflop,) then the inclusion or exclusion of a single card could impact the outcome, by hand value or play. In fact the effect may be magnified, by virtue of multiple betting rounds.

Imagine if one player holds AK (button) and the other holds 99. The flop comes 39Q in our virtual example and 37Q in the casino, simply because a 9 was burned. Would this affect play? You bet. In both cases the 99 is the better hand at this stage, but the 999 is looking to trap and the 99 looks to determine position. Further, the 999 stands a higher probability of winning outright vs. 99.

This is an issue of process, of consistency across venues, whereby a deviation from the established norm introduces the possibility of three cards, that would normally be excluded from play, to affect the outcome of a hand. It's not an issue of trust and I don't care if I know what was burned, but it is important that three burns occurred. Certainly, on-line burning would not serve the same purpose as in a casino, but it would make the virtual and casino games procedurally equivalent. In essence, the exclusion of three cards, in the ether or casino, may impact each hand played equally.

The random draw is not the issue. It's what's in the bag that's the issue. In a casino, just before the flop, there is one less card that can be drawn. It has been burned, removed from play, and cannot enter play on the flop, turn, or river. In the virtual world that card, that will never see the light of day in a casino, will be considered for play on the flop, turn, and river. That is the difference. This is not about probability from a players perspective, but the inclusion of three extra cards in the pool of possibilities from a procedural perspective.

I'm no math genius but....
27 cards never will never see the light of day at a full 10 person table.
What if I take the burn cards and stick them at the bottom of the deck?
(read best in slow southern accent)