I regret everything that happened the past few days. When I logged on Sunday little did I realize that things would be so radically different on Monday. I have been very quiet publicly about everything that went on. Now that the smoke has cleared i will share my thoughts and clear things up as best i can, as I promised i would do when it was all sorted out. Unfortunately things took a lot longer to sort out when new issues came up.

I take quite a bit of responsibility for all the proceedings. I really do regret how things went down yesterday. I do not like banning anyone, let alone long time quality posters. I should have handled the situation better/differently from the outset, which may have nipped this in the bud. Unfortunately I am human and probably typed before thinking, I think we are all guilty of that from time to time.

IREXES

That said, I do stand by the 1 day ban of Irexes. As a former moderator he is fully aware of our private discussions on open criticism of the staff. In fact Irexes himself said, he "deserved" the ban on his blog. Regardless of how you feel about me, there is a right and a wrong way to handle these things.


YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH US

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a moderators decision: "why is so and so banned" "why does x get do this but y cannot" this is fine. Comments like, "you are a xxxx moderator" or "this is Fxxxing bxxxshxx" are not acceptable. Would you walk up to your supervisor at work, say that, and expect to still have a job? To be run properly and effectively, PFO needs some structure or it will talespin into RGP, a spam infested Flame contest. The beginning of structure is the moderators. If you have an issue bring it to the staffs attention privately. Kid or any moderator will gladly listen to your gripes and take action where necassary. The public face of PFO is for poker discussion, not for internal issues.

BEAVIS

The banning of Beavis was a no brainer. His Steve-O should not be a mod thread was disgusting and was a premeditated attempt to rile the forum into a frenzy. This cannot be tolerated, no matter what kind of esteem the member is held in. He knew the reaction that thread would get - side choosing, the lynch mob forming, detractors, supportors - and posted it as fast as he could. This is trolling and is not tolerated.

We mods are supervisors, appointed by election or by the head honcho himself. In this respect we have "earned" Kids or the communities trust and deserve at least a snippet of respect in our handling of moderation issues. We have enough to do without being questioned on every decision we make. A lot of what looks like quick decisions is actually talked about in private beforehand. There is a moderator forum that you guys can't even see, and we work together in there for the betterment of the community.

MARM

Finally, after things had calmed down overnight Marm logged on in the morning, and without talking to anyone, reversed the decisions that had been agreed upon. This is the saddest outcome of this whole debacle.

He also criticized me publicly and started posting private conversations him and I had in the moderator forum. Yes, all of those quotes were taken from private conversations. This is where I blew my top. Beavis also posted some of these so I know Marm was sharing them with him. And Irexes had posted them on his blog the day before.

I asked Marm several times to speak to me privately and each time was rebuffed and taunted. He then continued to post my private responses to him (keeping his taunts private mind you) in the public forum. I would like to point out that I did not delete any of those messages from the forum, the other staff did. I have been vilified for this in private and want to clear up that misconception.

I felt completely betrayed that someone would post private conversations for all to see. Even worse, he DID NOT POST THE ENTIRE CONVERSATIONS! You never once see any of my civil posts to please speak privately to me, you only see my responses after he calls me Stalin or Hitler. You also see none of his taunts, As I will not stoop to posting private conversations I will say this, these were not 1 sided affairs. Marm would have you believe I am a raving lunatic and he is calm and level headed, this is not the case.

Alex requested that I include his private reply to Marm, in the moderator lounge on the whole breech of trust issue

STEVE-O

While I admit I can get pretty worked up, it takes something specific, like betraying my trust, to do it. I feel many of you would be as livid in the same situation. My threats to them were also given in private, THEY CHOSE TO POST THEM PUBLICLY. They said they wanted all of you to see the true Steve-O, well I have always been open about my shortcomings, I am argumentative, hard headed, and opinionated. What i also am is, honest, helpful, and loyal.

I have a strange reputation for having a quick banning finger. The truth is that until yesterday I had temp banned only 1 member, ONE! If it is true that I ban everyone who disagrees with me, wouldn't my ban count be well above 1, considering a lot of people disagree with me. I think my reputation has been distorted by a vocal minority. I'll let the facts speak for themselves, 1 temporary ban, thats it. Typically, I am the one voting leninency in the mod forum, so I'm not sure where this rep comes from.

I am in no way blame free in any of this, and I readily admit that. With me you have to take the bad with the good. Fortunately the good greatly outweighs the bad and the bad is few and far between. As in poker, I try to always learn from these mistakes and I don't hold any type of grudges. That is the real Steve-O. and I have always been honest about that.

PFO voted me in as a moderator. PFO recently voted me the best overall poster.I also received votes as most helpful and such. I hope that this vocal minority has not spread enough propaganda to completely destroy the communities trust in me. I point only to my track record.

Hopefully this thread will shed some light on what really happened. And I'll let you guys judge for yourself on who has been being honest with you: Me, who tells you flat out I can be a jerk but it's all good. Or, the people who break your trust and post snippets of private conversations to make someone look as bad as they can for their own warped agenda.

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These noobs only threads are always so weird...

I hope this results in a happy closure where every person involved could've been more private to some extent. I've known Beav, Marm, and Steve for years online are credit them with portions of my success and a lot of my growth in the game. My message to Marm was that blunt because of familiarity and a mutual respect. I'd like to have a private response regarding that in due time.

In general, things got too personal and storyline's were created where they didn't exist. The product of that were the fabrications of victims and villians where none existed and I think (I hope) that we can all see that in hindsight.

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I have a feeling for the most part this will all blow over. Either way PFO will survive...somehow.

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Lots of good rakeback options at http://www.raketherake.com/?refer=RTR25126

KRE8R probably has about seventy college funds in his NL5 roll.

No doubt here.

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Well who knows what will happen in the future, but I will say that if things remain like this there's some good insight from players that may have been lost. Seems like most of the fighting has been from a relatively small circle who have a few years of history together.

Anyway like most people here I think we all come here for one basic reason....to learn about, study, and analyze the game. Personal attacks IMO should not be tolerated in discussions. A simple "I'm going to have to disagree here" should do as opposed to "you're an idiot who knows nothing" (or anything to that effect) serves no purpose other than pissing matches.

I usually always enjoy insight from Rex, Steve, Alex, Marm, and Beavis as well as others here in posts relating to analysis or theory about the game. If all those views can't be shared in a forum than it's a shame because some good advice and thoughts have come out of discussions when everyone gets into the think tank on a subject.

I'm not taking sides on this, there's topics, thoughts, and opinions I'd still like to be able to hear from all the people who are/have been here and so on when it comes to certain subjects, or particular games which hopefully I'll still be able to do, and maybe others here might feel similar.

I'm not planning on getting involved in an "us vs. them" scenario or any type of clique(s) , if I should need opinions of anyone who's thought's I have appreciated in the past whether it's through here or elsewhere I'd like to be able to have those available for the future. If I can still seek out thoughts when/where it's needed great that's what I think most people are on a forum for. I'd like to be able to still learn and discuss with all of you if possible.

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If you're looking to borrow money or have someone give you money in order to play poker online please don't contact me... Click Here for help , and explain your situation.

Not that my opinion matters much, but I have to say this is all a load of crap. Peoople here can take shots at the President of the United States, and even God, at will, but when someone says something negative about a mod they get banned? I'm sorry, but that's just insane.

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I'm CDO. It's like OCD, but everying is in order just like it should be.

I direct you to this

YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH US


When dealing with coworkers or supervisors there is a right way and a wrong way to air your grievances, that is all the moderators are saying

As the president does not help in maintaining the site you can pretty much say what you want within reason about him.

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These noobs only threads are always so weird...

I have read most of what has been posted on this subject. I have a couple of thoughts right now.

The merits of editing/deleting certain posts and banning/unbanning certain members is debatable - but circumstances have moved well beyond the point of debate. There are larger issues now, which I will get to. For now, I think 2 things need to be clearly defined (presumably by Kid):
1) What is acceptable/unacceptable, including consequences, when it comes to criticizing the actions and methods of a Mod. There is a clear discrepency among members as to where the line needs to be drawn. So, draw the line and move on. As long as members feel they have recourse against "mod abuse" and as long as mods feel they aren't too undermined in their authority.
2) What is accepable "editing" by a Mod. Can a mod delete a valid post to protect the direction of discussion of a thread? Can a mod delete controversial posts to curb unhealthy bickering and personal attacks? Again, just set the rules and be done with it.

Now, the larger issue at hand. PFO, it seems to me, is at risk of losing 4 or more members who are hugely EV+ contributors to the site: Irexes, Beavis, Marm and Antneye. These 4 are responsible for close to 18,000 posts. In the Mobber categories of Best Goto Poster, best post, most helpful, most respected player and best overall poster they received a whopping 64 votes!!! I think I speak for the majority when I say, We don't want PFO to lose these members.
A lot has been said about how mods are supposed to operate. IMHO, the most important job of a mod is to maintain an environment in which intelligent discussion of poker can thrive. Well, these 4 members are responsible for much of the poker talk on this site that has made most of us better players and allowed us to enjoy this community.

This week the system has failed if Rex, Beavis, Ant and Marm feel that their best option is to say goodbye to PFO. I don't care who's right and who's wrong (and for the record, I think there is more wrong than right to pass around to everybody). I don't see that anyone's actions have been vindicated - just the actions of everyone have culminated in the worst possible outcome: the possible loss of (at least) 4 very important members.

So, to Steve and Kid: please do what it takes to get them back.
To Beavis, Marm, Rex and Ant: don't feel like coming back vindicates Steve, Kid or anyone else - it doesn't. Coming back just means that your contributions to the community are more important than the ideology of running an internet forum - because they are.

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"There is a good chance I gave you a very bad description of something that doesn't work."

We are working on an addition to the site rules as i speak.

Basically it is like I said above,

ACCEPTABLE - "why was that deleted" "why was so and so banned" "I disagree with your decision on x"

UNACCEPTABLE - "you suck as a mod" "this site is Bxxxshxx"

If you want to make cooments like that do it privately to a staff member, not publicly in a thread. Remember The public face of PFO is for poker talk, not to argue the innerworkings of the site or how it is run.

unfortunately this is a grey area, we very rarely delete any post by a longtime member(as you can tell by the crap in some threads).

If you feel slighted by a post of yours being deleted bring it up privately to a staff member. It works much better than the alternative method.

Look, noone wants to see quality member leave, but they do. We hope they do come back and contribute, we really do. If they don't, the forum will live. We lost Alex for months before, EAMELGUZIO and other top notch posters have also left over the years and we lived on.

Years ago I remember RGP losing Sklansky, Caro, Chris Ferguson, and a boatlaod of superstars. They lived on and still boast big name posters.

With all this fallout those 3 may or may not come back. If they do, terrific. If they don't, we will be fine. In a year from now we will either have them here or there will be a new Beavis, Marm, and Irexes.

I'm not sure what antneyes deal is since I have never spoken to him, never so much as warned him, so I don't know why he is so upset unless it's just idealogy.

I have given the most honest apology i will offer those 3 in my original post, I took blame for my part in the affair. I was betrayed by all 3 and they will receive no "I'm sorry, please come back from me". If they come back I will be polite and affable to them, but obviously I will never feel the same about them again. To me what they did, posting pieces private conversations is as low as stealing.

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These noobs only threads are always so weird...

1) What is acceptable/unacceptable, including consequences, when it comes to criticizing the actions and methods of a Mod. There is a clear discrepency among members as to where the line needs to be drawn. So, draw the line and move on. As long as members feel they have recourse against "mod abuse" and as long as mods feel they aren't too undermined in their authority.

I thought he was quite clear of this after the whole review that took about 24 hours of what spanned about 5-10 minutes. The line was drawn and will be in the amended rules which I updated and is pending Kid's review. That line is to keep those things private.

Beavis responding to my response in someone else's MTT thread, "You don't know what you're talking about, Alex. This is a huge hole in your strategy that I can't believe you don't see. This is why you'll never make the next step...." or some shit like that is fine. Or someone calling me a racist because of my views in the Israel/Palestine thread without getting nasty is fine. Someone who thinks I waste my time being a Cubs fan is fine.

What isn't fine is when that line is crossed and it's not about my views, but my conduct. If any member's conduct is at issue with another member, PM's should be sent to mods. If Steve or my conduct is at issue, a PM should be sent to Kid. This will be included in a more concise manner in the amended rules.

What I've said for about the 2nd or 3rd time publicly on this near-dead issue is that no forum anywhere on the web with any sense of structure allows open criticism to the forum's moderation. I first learned this when I was banned by a poker forum before coming here and it was a cute little story of martyrdom. Coincidentally, that partially led to the first real boom of this site and seeing this forum develop and lurking other forums made me understand slowly where I fucked up before. I was 20-21. Now, I'm 23. Not much of a difference, but that seems like ages ago if you knew me then and now IRL. I have since emailed that forum with a sincere apology and they've lifted my ban. I haven't posted there since, nor do I or did I ever intend to, but I hate leaving conflicts unresolved when I was in the wrong.

2) What is accepable "editing" by a Mod. Can a mod delete a valid post to protect the direction of discussion of a thread? Can a mod delete controversial posts to curb unhealthy bickering and personal attacks? Again, just set the rules and be done with it.

This is a gray area, as Steve said, which is no different from other forums as well. There is A TON of trolling allowed on this forum that wouldn't see 5 minutes of webspace from reputable members because of the loose atmosphere that adds to this forum's personality.

Every time someone starts a thread, you never know where it's gonna go and that's a great thing. That's why what happens here works. But, when any member starts a thread and feels that it strays away from their thoughts, they can guide it back. When trolling occurs early in that thread that was meant for a good discussion, that trolling will be deleted. If it's noticed by another member first, feel free to report the bad post and stray the discussion back on topic. That's what make us a community.

We do have trolling rules and of course they're vague, but I use my spam mantra: "Spam's like pornography. I know it when I see it." and the staff sees and deletes 99% of the spam before any member sees it. My warning to spammers that I always include in the PM's I send to them when it's spam-lite is "Spam's like ejaculation. You know when you're about to do it. You know when you're doing it. But here, I clean it up." The same goes for trolling.

Now, this is sensitive because post-counts are like silent hierachy level that I'll admit, I've never understood, but I'm not really a "forum guy" outside of here and 2 other forums where I've posted 200 times in over 3 years as a member. But, the people who hate trolling the most are actually the most reputable frequent posters of a forum. Now, the law of averages says that in a loose atmosphere that we have here, the area tends to get grayer with trolling, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Accusing someone of trolling is therefore like calling a man a thief in the forum community and gets taken much more personally than it should on all sides at many times. Those conflicts are again best resolved in private.

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